Diana Kander & Tucker & Trotter: Episode 1176

Transcript

[00:00:44] HAB: How do underdogs close a huge deal they have no business winning? How do rainmakers pull off a sale before the RFP is ever issued? They don't do it with logical argument, or even the best PowerPoint presentation. They do it by turning their pitch into an emotional experience that makes the customer think this just feels right. Welcome to the Author Hour podcast. I'm your host Hussein Al-Baiaty, and I'm joined by authors Diana Kander and Tucker Trotter, who are here to talk about their new book, Go Big or Go Home: 5 Ways to Create a Customer Experience That Will Close the Deal. Let's get into it. Hello, friends, and welcome back to Author Hour. I'm here with my friends, Tucker Trotter and Diana Kander, who just launched an amazing book called, Go Big or Go Home: 5 Ways to Create a Customer Experience That Will Close the Deal. Tucker, Diana, thank you so much for joining me today on Author Hour. How are you two feeling?

[00:01:46] DK: Pretty awesome.

[00:01:47] TT: Yes, doing great. Thanks for having us.

[00:01:49] HAB: Yeah, congratulations on your book launch. I'm sure it's been amazing. How's the response been?

[00:01:55] DK: I mean, pretty incredible. We've gotten a lot of great reviews for the book and we're just getting a lot of text messages and emails. People love it.

[00:02:04] HAB: Yes, well, you put your phone number right in the beginning pages, and I'm like, “I'm about to text these people right now and say, ‘What’s up?’ This is cool.” Because I love that concept. It made it really sort of like friendly and intuitive. So, kudos to you for taking such a brave thing to do, communicating with your readers that way. Before we get into the juiciness of the book, I love giving our listeners a little bit of background of you know, both of you. So, Diana, I would love to start with you, maybe a little bit about where you grew up, maybe a person or an event that inspired you to be on the path that you're on. I'd love to hear about your experience a little bit.

[00:02:41] DK: Yes. I'm a serial entrepreneur. I moved to the US as a refugee when I was eight years old. So, growing up pretty poor, and just trying to make it. That involved a lot of selling and a lot of business. I had about a decade of trying every different kind of business that I could and some did really well and some didn't. One in particular, kind of rose like a rocket ship and then crashed. I wrote a journal of my experience during that, and that became my first book. That created kind of the next decade of my career of writing business books and sharing big ideas with the world.

[00:03:19] HAB: That's remarkable. I share something with you that's very, very close. I came to the States at eight years old, also from a refugee camp. So, we have a lot to chat about and I’m excited to talk about all that. But go ahead, Tucker, I'd love to hear your experience as well.

[00:03:36] TT: Yes, I mean, so mine might be a little more boring. But I'm the CEO of Dimensional Innovations and we're an experience, design, build, and tech company. Really, that's, I think, one of the driving reasons behind the book was just we want more people to know about not just us, but about the amazing experiences we get to create for people. But my background, and I think it's relevant because it ties to this, something that happened to me, but it's, I think, really just interesting, is at a pretty young age, my parents got divorced, and I went with my mom and stepfather to southern Missouri and grew up in a three-story teepee that was off the grid before off the grid was cool. And because of that, we were 12 miles from the closest town, and it was really – there wasn't a whole lot to do. So, I spent a lot of my childhood inventing, making, drawing, and telling stories, and that was very – it led to a lot of what I ended up doing today, which is some version of the same thing. So, yeah, that's my unusual story.

[00:04:44] HAB: Well, Tucker, it sounds like you were a refugee too, man. I mean, you lived in a tent. I mean, it wasn't a refugee camp per se, but it sounds like you were pulled out of society in some way, shape, or form, to kind of live out a childhood, living out your imagination. I love it. I feel like all three of us have lived in a tent and that's great. That's a good starting point, man. So, I'm really excited because you two have brought forth an incredible book I love this idea of customer experience. Now, this idea of emotions, and all those kinds of things that go into the packaging of a deal, and how it could come to fruition. And, of course, creating successful sales pitches. Let's dive into it a little bit. Can you tell me a particularly memorable pitch that you have been a part of seeing or yourself giving? I know, Diana, you've been, of course, a huge entrepreneur. What was that like for you? Did you do something that you feel was memorable, as far as a pitch trying to, whether it be a sales pitch or getting some funding for your business ventures? We'll start with Diana and we'll go to Tucker.

[00:05:53] DK: Well, I think the story of how we got together to write this book is a memorable pitch. Tucker and I got connected through a mutual friend. He had wanted to write a book about dimensional innovations and the cool work that they do. So, he called me up, and was like, “Hey, I want to write a book. Would you like to do it with me?” I was like, “No. Super not interested. Thank you so much.” I took the call on my treadmill, walking my dog, like, could not have been less interested. And he was like, “Hey, well, would you come take a tour of DI?” I said, “Sure, I'll come take a tour.” When I was there and learned about all the cool things that they do, and I also learned about this move that they had to close deals at a much higher rate than normal. So, their typical close rate is 45%. But when they do this move, they close 90%.

[00:06:45] HAB: Dang, that's –

[00:06:47] DK: I was like, “Wow, that's amazing.” The more I learned about the move, and how it works, and why it works, I became obsessed with this idea to the point where I went from not being interested at all, to like begging to coauthor this book so I could tell everybody I knew about it. I think that's the essence of the kind of pitch that we're talking about. You're not just trying to sell something, you're trying to establish a relationship and emotional connection, and then somebody becomes like a tenacious advocate for you, as opposed to a customer.

[00:07:20] HAB: So powerful. It sounds like, even with that connection, there was a pitch inside of that made it irresistible. I wonder what that is? Tucker, can you elaborate a little bit more?

[00:07:33] TT: Well, I think, it's great to hear that story from Diana's perspective, because that really was like, obviously, here we are on the podcast, because of that important pitch. But to me, it was really just about getting to know Diana and sharing the enthusiasm and excitement I have for what we do here every day, and in our amazing team. It's pretty easy to do that. We always say, if we can just get people in our door, then there's an extremely high likelihood we're going to work together in some way, and at the very least, form a really good friendship and bond. That's what that day was about. I think what's been really exciting is to see the team, just through the process of this book has, it's really kind of reinvigorated our team, and you're seeing a lot more of these moves happening throughout our team. The great part about it is that all this really does is just make it more fun. So, I mean, if you think about it, a lot of times selling can feel like a job and it shouldn't. It should be like a sport, it should be fun. One way to do that is to introduce this whole idea into any pitch, and it's more rewarding, especially, after winning.

[00:08:55] HAB: That's so powerful, because I feel like, as a young entrepreneur, when I was kind of growing through my little t-shirt shop that I was building up in Portland out of college, man, I had to like really pitch myself really. I had to – to these small organizations, for little t-shirt things and I didn't know what I was doing. I had no idea. But the thing I knew I was good at, I was good at talking to people. And I knew that if I could build a relationship, after a couple of weeks, I can kind of make my ask, or at least offer my “service”, which was, the t-shirt printing, it was really lame. But I grew it from there based on those relationships. I know for me, it was just, my strength was talking to people, but I didn't know how to improve that or get better at that unless of course I started reading sales books, which some of them are dry, some of them are pretty straightforward, some of them are like, this kind of is just like repetition from all these other books. But when I was reading throughout your book, the idea of emotions and how they play a role in having successful sales pitches really resonated with me, because I feel like that's kind of the emotion – that's kind of the play I went in, was the emotions. Creating a fun environment, like a fun meeting instead of going to a coffee shop. It's like, “Let's go get some pizza.” Something interesting, fun. What do you guys think about this idea of emotions and how it plays a role? Diana, go ahead first.

[00:10:31] DK: Well, the book has a ton of research that we did to figure out exactly why this move that DI was doing and had been working. The research clearly shows that while we think we are rational people, and no matter how high up we go in an organization, we are making decisions with our gut, like with our emotions, and then we are justifying them with our rational brain. There's a fascinating study that was done where they put people in an MRI machine that was doing like a brain scan, and the researchers would ask you questions, asked you to make decisions, and they knew what the decision was 11 seconds before the person could formulate it in their minds.

[00:11:13] HAB: Wow. That’s so powerful.

[00:11:15] DK: So how can we, rather than talking to the rational brain, like talk to the gut, talk to the emotional part, the one that's making all those decisions? I think you have to have a different kind of conversation, and then showing spreadsheets and numbers and a rational logical argument.

[00:11:32] HAB: Yes. Tucker, can you elaborate a little bit more on that conversation? How you cultivate it to be, I don't know, to tap a little bit more into those emotions?

[00:11:40] TT: Of course. I always think to stories, and I think, to one of the stories that's in the book that shows you exactly how this can work. And the story is about how we got the Miami Marlins bobblehead museum. So, on the surface, there was a budget, and there's a timeline, and it was presented to us in that way. As a team, we got together and we just said, “Okay, so this guy has the largest collection of bobbleheads in the world. So, he obviously loves bobbleheads.” This is a pretty tight budget to trap a bunch of bobbleheads inside of a case where they can't bobble for the rest of their life just sounded horrible to us. So, we said, “Okay, we're going to do a pitch. It's not going to be what exactly what they asked for. But our LTF move was to build an actual bobblehead of the decision makers and send them to them. The logical side, the non-emotional side would have been like, “No, you didn't present to the budget. But because we're emotional buyers, the opposite happened.” And as soon as he received it, we got a call that said, “Okay, you got it.” So, I think, not that you shouldn't listen to your clients, you always should, but you should also understand the psychology behind what makes decisions happen and know that there's always another side, and there's always more opportunity. I think, I always try to answer with some story that happen in our world that proves that it works. And the science, though, was so important to have in the book, because otherwise, you just got a bunch of stories in your head, you don't have the evidence that backs all of it up.

[00:13:21] HAB: Yes. It’s really powerful. I mean, as far as like, to what Diana was talking about, and putting someone in a – where you’re scanning their brain to basically figure out where this response is coming from, and kind of almost like proving how forever since humanity started how stories, are such a big part of how we process not only information, but also our emotion, and our decision making. I think that's a powerful thing to obviously use. But stories have been used to sell things for some time, and I think this interesting idea of making the move into more emotions, and weaving that into the story, and ensuring that it's there, especially with your clients is kind of fascinating. So, you talk about this idea of balancing, surprise, and functionality. Can you kind of go a little bit deeper into that and kind of explain a little bit more, Tucker?

[00:14:19] TT: I'll kick this one to Diana, if that's all right, because I think she can –

[00:14:22] HAB: Yes, totally fine.

[00:14:23] DK: The book at a very high level is how to get somebody to feel emotion during your presentation so that they'll remember it and be more likely to say yes. One of the key components that most people don't think about is the importance of having surprise inside your presentation. So, the way that most people listen to a pitch is they're asking themselves, like, “Do I know what this is? Have I seen something like this before?” If the answer is yes, then they can go into autopilot mode. The brain loves conserving energy as much as possible. So then, they can start thinking about the new car they're thinking about getting, or whatever. The addition they're putting on their house. If you and surprise them, then they'll say, “Wait a minute, I need to pay attention to this.” So, we actually think it's vital for you to plan out, not just what you're going to say, but how you're going to say it in a unique way, and having some prizes as part of that, is a key component.

[00:15:16] HAB: That's really interesting because I feel like I've given a few pitches here and there, nothing too exciting. I was insane – I had one pitch that was a kind of a big deal, when I was pitching to Nike, that I could be their “small-time printer” for their, like, super rush jobs. Because they had these 1,000 t-shirts, 2,000 t-shirts for like events, and camps, and things like that, that were actually the bread and butter of my business. But in order for me to have been a – was like a certified contractor, I had to go through this process, and then I had to go meet this team, and basically pitch myself. That was like, oh, man, that was so daunting, and scary. But I think what landed me the gig was just my ability to just share my story, and I think, Diana just sharing that I was a refugee, and I was going through these kinds of things, and I was like, sort of hungry for the work, and that I was local. I was really just pushing all the buttons I can push, you know what I mean? And highlighting that, not only – it's like, there are many print shops that can produce this work for you. That's not the problem. But I've been showing up time and time for the past like three months because they kind of do these test runs with you and all that stuff. And then I told them a story about having to meet one of their execs at the airport, to bring him a box of t-shirts that he was going to take to Michael Jordan. I was just telling them the intensity of that story, how I stayed up all night, printed the shirts, box them up all beautifully because it was like such a cool opportunity to print something for Michael Jordan. I think that sealed the deal. I'm still not sure. But everyone just, I feel like, they sort of admired the hard work and the curves that I would take on such a project. I think you're 100% right in that, I can tell through sharing those stories that are being emotionally connected to what's the surprise? Did you make it? I was telling, “I was weaving through traffic, and I finally delivered the shirts.” I feel like in telling that story, I can see their excitement, I can see their surprise. So, I love that you share that because that is very important. I remember like not even talking about the printing process, and them not even asking about that. I feel like with a lot of people, when we pitch our businesses or ideas, we focus so much on the product or the service itself, or how it's delivered, but not mentioning those stories that are critical or funny or interesting, that could probably raise an eyebrow or two, which could lead to that surprise. Anyways, I just wanted to share sort of my interaction with how I try to balance those kinds of things. But can you talk about a time when a cocreation approach was particularly successful in creating a pitch that didn't go your way or I guess got shot down? And what went wrong?

[00:18:11] DK: Tucker, you want to talk about one of your pitches that didn't work out?

[00:18:16] TT: Well, I'm trying to think of one. I mean, of course, we always, in the book, we’re talking about –

[00:18:19] HAB: We’re 90%. It's hard.

[00:18:23] TT: Yes. Exactly. I think that actually, I can think of several examples, but every one of our projects, to some extent, doesn't land exactly the way you thought it would. There's also maybe stakeholders that are part of it, that maybe you're not pitching to. But then in order for the project to be successful, they need to be a big part of it. So, I do think that one of the projects that we talked about in the book is Al Davis Memorial Torch at the Raider's new stadium. And we've spent a lot of time pitching to the architect that we can create this, but we really needed to also get the owner to believe in the idea. It was a very risky venture, in the fact, that it was going to be the largest 3D printed structure in the world, and 3D printing and something of that scale had never been done, not even close. So, the way we appealed to the owner was that we kind of looked into it and we said, “You know what, that's actually the Raiders. The Raiders, they always do something different than everyone else.” If the whole league goes one direction, they're going to go another direction. Actually, moving to Vegas is a good example of that.

[00:19:38] HAB: Yes, very rebellious.

[00:19:39] TT: Right, they're rebellious. So, that's the story we told. I mean, I think, backing up a minute, I think your story you just told us about pitching to Nike, it shows the power of the story is that – and you started off the podcast about talking about that entrepreneurs are really selling themselves and that's what people are buying. They're buying you. They’re believing in you. And hearing your story about the t-shirts and telling the story about getting them to the exec at the airport, it shows that you're humble. It shows that you're hungry. And it shows that – and these are core values of DI, and so it really resonates with me. Also like to them, it was so flattering, right? Because the whole story was about them and how committed you are to their team, and to their brand, and to their success. So, I think that's what – backing up to the Raider story, that's what we were doing. I mean, it was obviously we were trying to show that we're qualified to do the project, but it was more speaking to their brand, and who they are, and showing that we believe in that, and we understand it, and we learned about it, and that it resonates and ties to what they want to accomplish, and how we can help them do that. So, I think your story is incredibly relevant and fits right into the whole spirit of this book.

[00:20:55] HAB: Yes, that's really powerful. I mean, that's why I feel like a lot of what you were saying in the book really resonated was like, I was on track. These guys are obviously gurus and experts about the pitch. I mean, the audience and understanding who you're getting to meet with, and being in that room with, or wherever that space is where you get to pitch yourself, because I felt like, yes, it doesn't matter really – it does matter what you're doing, of course, your expertise, and all that good stuff. But ultimately, it becomes about a relationship, which you kind of hinted at earlier, Diana, which I think is my favorite part of business. What I realized that I do love business because of the relationships because I got to go have pizza, or go do some fun, or meet the guy I really want to talk to, at his kid’s basketball game. But just go watch the basketball game like and hang out and bring some popcorn. Do something that was different than how other people were probably meeting this person, and probably meeting their needs. But you also talk about like this specific thing, which is analyzing the potential client on a deeper level, so that when you craft your pitch, there is that connectivity. Diana, can you sort of touch on that a little bit and how you sit and sort of strategize and analyze how you bring together the information about your client?

[00:22:13] DK: Sure. I mean, there's just so much that's publicly available. But most of us stick to demographic research when we're going to go pitch somebody, which is like how big their company is, how long they've been there, how much their spend is, how many employees, and that's basically you preparing to pitch to a human shaped wallet. You just have a very –

[00:22:33] HAB: Wow. Such a good vivid image. Sorry.

[00:22:34] DK: – high-level view of who they are. We think that you should be doing psychographic research, which is understanding their values, their beliefs, what they really care about, so that you can connect to them, not just about this deal, but on a human level.

[00:22:51] HAB: It feels like the deeper we get into business understanding marketing, I feel like it's always been about the psychology, the human behaviors. But for me, as a young entrepreneur, I didn't know because we got all these templates, it feels like, on how to do X, Y, or Z. But the thing about templates is everybody's doing them and it's hard to stand out. I love what you said about, look, you got to go a little bit deeper, and there's so many ways to figure out who you're talking to, and really get to know them. By engaging with them on a different deeper level, you probably have a better chance of sticking out a little bit, which is really profound. So, I got to ask, putting together books is no easy feat. But Diana, I know you've worked on a few, of course, for some successful ones out in the world. But what was it like pulling this book together? And did you two learn from that journey? Tucker, I'll start with you.

[00:23:41] TT: Well, I learned that I could not have done it without Diana, and that back to like important LTF pitches, getting her excited about taking on this journey with me was the most important deal I needed to close. So, I think that it's actually more challenging than I expected, and more work than I expected the decisions. I think, some of the hardest decisions were the stories that we didn't tell. They were so good. We had so many amazing interviews with people and we wanted to tell everyone’s stories, but we also had this commitment to making this really accessible, and not repeating the same concept over and over and over. Because people are smart enough. They get it. But we want to tell the relevant ones. I think one of the hardest parts, actually, was probably what we didn't say. But then just all of the decisions along the way. I think the critical element here, at least, was to have a great partnership, and Diana and I have just got an awesome partnership because I think we rarely agree on anything, but we always yield to the other one if the other one's just more passionate about it, or has done more research, and that comes from trust and respect, and that's what it's got to start with.

[00:24:54] HAB: Or whoever's got the better pitch in this case.

[00:24:56] TT: Right. Exactly. That’s the perfect –

[00:24:59] HAB: That's awesome. Diana, do you want to add to that?

[00:25:02] DK: No. It’s just been a great partnership. This is my third book, but it's my favorite, and it's the only one I want to talk about at the moment.

[00:25:11] HAB: That's awesome. Well, I have a question about your readers. There are so many entrepreneurs out there that could really use this work because I feel like pitching is everything. It's our life. I had to pitch myself to my wife. You know what I mean? It's kind of at the root. It is sales but in a different way. I think it's profound. So, I'm eager to hear about what your readers are thinking, and what they hope to get out of it. But what do you hope they feel walking away from putting down the book? Diana, what do you hope they feel?

[00:25:46] DK: I think that Go Big or Go Home is like a mindset of how you want to go into a pitch, and that is that you care about the other person and that you want to show them that in a unique way, and that you're going to invest in them before they invest in you, which is one of the phrases in the book. I think it really helps you show your soul to the other side, and that's a very different mindset from like, how am I going to convince them? How am I going to get them to say, yes? How am I going to win? I want an action for the future, and it’s changing how I pitch myself as a speaker, and I'm closing a lot more deals. I'm having a lot more fun, and I'm building a lot more relationships.

[00:26:31] HAB: Super powerful. Tucker, what do you think?

[00:26:33] TT: Well, I mean, I think before this call with you, I don't know that I had thought about this one. But I love the idea of it being validating, that an entrepreneur who was doing this naturally, because they just do it, because they're entrepreneurs that they read this and realize, “Wait, I've been doing this, and that's why I've been successful.” So, I think that's really cool, and not something maybe we sought out to do, and it's exciting, I think, for everyone. We've heard people say, “This is required reading for anyone in sales.” But like you said, everybody's in sales to some extent. But I hope that people can understand that there's a positive side to sales and that they see that it can be fun, and it's not like if they had a negative connotation of someone of what a salesperson is, that maybe this changes it and helps them say that, “Oh, actually, I'm in it too”, and it's really just about bringing some fun into what we do. Because after all, it should be. If you make it that way, people will see that. They'll see that emotion, they'll see that you're excited, and that will forge great relationships and great clients. So, I think everyone also, tend to relate to the book. Because in so many ways, if you just think about some of your favorite movies, sometimes it's like the moment in the movie that is the go big go home movement. So, I think that's the other thing. There's a lot here, and I think people will realize it's very approachable, and find it validating.

[00:28:03] HAB: Yes. That's super powerful, man. I got to add that this idea of going big, I think for me, was kind of like to what both of you were saying, and Diana, like the sharing of your soul, and just kind of like being vulnerable. That's the biggest part of ourselves that we sometimes tend to protect because we don't think that has anything to do with selling or pitching or anything like that. But I think anytime I've put myself on the table, and just been honest about the connection, and why I'm there, and why I want to work with this person. I remember locking a deal down with like a couple of school districts and I basically use the same pitch. But it was just like, I honestly don't care if you don't give me this work. I just want to show up and speak to kids. The fact that I get to print t-shirts for these kids and bring it and then maybe invite them for coming out and doing like field trip to come out to my shop. That was fun for these teachers to hear. It was a different approach. I was just being myself because, I was like, I love coming to speak to kids. Because let's be honest, I didn't see a bunch of people looking like me coming to speak to me when I was in high school. But those were huge contracts. I was just like, “Well, whatever happens if I don't get this deal, it's on to the next one.” But I feel like both of you are definitely – you sort of – like you said earlier, you validated that how I go about pitching myself or doing my sales is actually the right way. However, your book goes deeper and teaches me the sort of analysis and the depth and the science, so that I can take my pitches up a notch even from there. That's really powerful, man. I love that. Tucker and Diana, you two, obviously have something incredible here. I can't wait for it to kind of grow throughout the community of entrepreneurship. You two are definitely rock stars, so thank you for sharing your stories and your time with me today. The book is titled, Go Big or Go Home: 5 Ways to Create a Customer Experience That Will Close the Deal. So besides checking out the book, where can people find you two? Diana, we'll start with you.

[00:30:07] DK: I'm @DianaKander everywhere, but I spend most of my time on LinkedIn.

[00:30:13] TT: I do too. Luckily, Tucker Trotter is a pretty unique name.

[00:30:21] HAB: Tucker Trotter. All right, my man. Well, thank you two for coming on the show. Congratulations on your book again. Let's continue to get this work out there. It's amazing. So, thanks again.

[00:30:29] TT: Yeah, thank you for having us.

[00:30:30] HAB: Absolutely. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Author Hour. You can find, Go Big or Go Home: 5 Ways to Create a Customer Experience That Will Close the Deal right now on Amazon. For more Author Hour episodes, subscribe to this podcast on your favorite subscription service. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. Same place, different author.