Pam Marmon 2: Episode 1183

Transcript

[0:00:25] HA: Your company is changing, whether you like it or not. As a manager, you're expected to make that transformation happen. Yet, you feel voiceless, unseen, and unrepresented. Welcome to the Author Hour Podcast. I’m your host Hussein Al-Baiaty and I’m joined by author Pam Marmon, who is here to talk about her new book called, Speak Up or Stay Stuck: Get Your Voice Heard when Fast and Forced Change Happens in the Workplace. Let’s flip through it. Hello friends and welcome back to Author Hour. I have a very special guest and a friend of mine joining us today. Her name is Pam Marmon and she just launched her second book out in the world called, Speak Up or Stay Stuck. Pam, thank you so much for joining me, this is super exciting.

[0:01:16] Pam Marmon 2: Thank you for having me, Hussein. It’s a pleasure to be here.

[0:01:18] HA: Yeah, Pam, you are such a beautiful case study in our Scribe world because man, you get in, you knock things out and you keep it pushed in but I know, you know having watched your journey sort of uncover, there was, you know, there’s a few moments in time where there was some self-doubt and all those kinds of things, which I really want to get into. But of course, your book is so powerful and I had the opportunity to kind of peruse through it in the last few days and I got to say, I mean, just like your first one, it was easy to get through, easy to sort of navigate, the stories had such a good pace and I didn’t feel overwhelmed, which is always nice to feel that in a book. But before we get into the book, I really want to give our audience who don’t know you and aren’t familiar with your work, to give just a little bit of personal background. Perhaps, where you grew up and what that was like for you and you know, what got you on the path and sort of the thought leadership that you’re in now as far as change and change making and development in the work culture but yeah, so just give us a little bit of a background if you will.

[0:02:25] Pam Marmon 2: Absolutely. So I actually opened the book with the story of immigrating to America. I grew up in Bulgaria until I was 12 and my family moved to America and that was a big change and it wasn’t until years later that I realized that change chose me. So instead of feeling like I was, you know, was taken out of control or change was happening to me, it was a mindset shift and I’d like to think that particular individual private change in my life really set me up to the career path that I’m on and I have taken over the years. I do change management consulting. I’ve been in the space for over a decade. I absolutely love what I do with clients, I find change joyful, satisfying. It brings me delight and I encounter so many leaders who fear it, who are afraid of it, resist it, and so I’m on a mission to help people celebrate change and to see change as something that’s actually really good for them, both personally and professionally, and so my journey has been really interesting. I’ve had the chance to work with Fortune 500 clients, lots of executive senior leaders, and managers on the front line.

[0:03:35] HA: Yeah, I love that. I’m glad you brought us right in because you know, again, your work is very interesting and it’s also kind of personal in a way because I feel like in engaging with these, you know, senior execs and all those kinds of things, you really kind of have to get to the root of what those fears are but what are the most common, I guess you would call them lies, if you will, that people believe about change and how do you coach sort of overcoming them?

[0:04:03] Pam Marmon 2: Yeah, so this is really interesting. It takes me back about a couple of years ago. I was visiting a client of mine in Michigan and I happened to be in town where I have friends from college and we all sat around the dinner table and we went around, everybody want to give an update on what life has been like for them and so I shared that my first book came out. It’s so great, I’m working with executive leaders, helping them change the world and my friends paused me and said, “What about us? Who’s helping us? We feel like change is happening to us.” and really, that was a defining moment for the book itself because I felt like all this time, I was coaching the executive leaders and yet there was a whole group of people that was impacted by change and needed to understand how to navigate change. It made me really step back and say, “I actually have a solution here” and I can really help not just my friends, I can help so many people in the world. So when I started writing the book, that was the premise of the people who I wanted to really address their pain point and one of the critical areas that I recognized was these limiting beliefs, things that we think that are lies in most cases. But these limiting beliefs, one of them is, “My leaders don’t care about me” and you know, and if you approach work with that kind of mindset, it’s very likely that’s all you’re going to see but in the book, I talk about how I sit in the board rooms. I watch your executive leaders fight for you, on your behalf. They’re actually good people and then the absence of information, we make up all kinds of crazy stories that may not be true. So that’s one, we have things like, “If I don’t speak up, I will lose my job.” That’s a really important one to understand. Many people hold back from speaking up because they’re afraid of retaliation and there are companies that have toxic cultures, negative consequences and so my question to them is, “Is it worth it?” “You know, can you find another position where you don’t have to be afraid of speaking up because you're valued and the culture allows you to be who you are and bring information to the front?” Another one is, “I don’t have much to add” or “If I speak up, it won’t make a difference” or “Nobody consulted me about this decision, this big change” and so in the book, I unpack each one of these mindsets and help the reader understand what is in your control and what are some limiting beliefs that are not serving you well and it’s best to eliminate them.

[0:06:26] HA: Yeah, that’s so powerful. I love that you brought that up because those limiting beliefs, I mean, they creep up all the way to the top of leadership, right? And they trickle back down all the way through and those beliefs I feel like, you know like you said, are intertwined with just lack of information, lack of communication. So how can we sort of effectively communicate with senior leaders to ensure our voices are heard as people who are in management are people who are just trying to seek change but do it in a way that again, doesn’t in fact you know, impact our work or you know, get fired or you get let go or you know, just impact how people see us at the work environment? I know that’s a tough conversation and I know this is probably kind of a loaded question but what has been your experience with that, you know, communication aspect of how to get our voices heard?

[0:07:17] Pam Marmon 2: Yeah. So one of the most important things that I teach in the book is how you can leverage your voice to make change your choice and that’s really powerful because if you approach change in the workplace from a point of control and having authority and making decisions for yourself, you're much more likely to be effective. But if you think change is happening to you and you have no control and you're just a victim, then you will behave a certain way and you will get results that are subpar and so I hope the readers really understand what is in their control and how they can influence others. So the first part of the book is about the past and we uncover some of the things in the past that are holding us back. The main part of the book is about the present and I introduce a model called “LESS” listen, empower, speak, and solve, and that’s truly the essence of the content that I want to teach people and then the last part is the future about becoming more change resilient. So when it comes to being able to speak to your senior leaders and be heard, it’s important to start out with listening. Listen to understand, why is this change happening, how will this change impact you and your team, what is expected of you during that transition. All of these things are really critical to understand in order for you to be able to speak. So first we listen. Empower is all about influence. So it’s you as an influencer but you also extending your influence to others, and having the courage to speak up and bring information to your senior leaders. But also being able to negotiate and that’s a really important piece because life is full of negotiating opportunities and we just have to get more effective in how we approach negotiations. Not to be fearful of negotiations but to really have an open mind. So introduce some concepts and some tools that the readers can really benefit from. Then as we look into speaking to your senior leaders, it’s understanding, first of all, who are they as an individual, what are they like, how do they prefer to communicate, what’s important to them, what do they value, and then, being able to bring that information, bring insights in the context of your organizational culture, so that you can really communicate effectively with your senior leader. Presenting your message in a way that will resonate with your senior leader, knowing when’s the most optimal time, whether it’s time of day, time of season in the year and sometimes it’s actually not you necessarily that has to share that information. That’s a really important concept to understand, that sometimes you’re not the messenger and that’s okay to get your message across, right? And then the last part of solving it. So demonstrating results, understanding data, being able to leverage data in a way that you tell a compelling story and really, to drive that change and the results that you’re looking for.

[0:10:11] HA: Yeah, I love that so much. I mean, you have so many great sort of stories that kind of highlight these, you know, these components in your book and I love how simple it is less. It just stands sort of on its own and you really effectively showcase, not only how to think about change but where you fit in the whole realm of it and how you can perceive it in a more positive way and I think that’s so powerful. So can you share maybe a success story or two of a team that was able to kind of start thriving during a time of fast and forced change? I know, for example, there’s a lot of companies that merge. There’s a lot of companies that get bought out, you know, those create that fast and I feel like forced change but I’m sure you have other examples. What’s a story of a team that was able to kind of navigate those waters?

[0:11:01] Pam Marmon 2: Yeah. Actually, that’s a great reminder, I have a wonderful client that did go through a merger and they took time. First of all, they dedicated a resource to make sure that the transformation was done properly from a people perspective, so that’s really important. They understood the value of change management, the value of bringing your team along and integrating the culture, that was really critical for them and we integrated the culture and was really the success story of how do you bring two different cultures together so that they learn and leverage each other so that there’s greater success at the end. A lot of that was the introduction, networking, being able to articulate what the cultures bring, what are some gaps, where we can add, what training we needed to do, and having those conversations. Sometimes tough but oftentimes, very positive conversations that just needed to happen, so that people can really move forward and be successful.

[0:11:58] HA: Yeah, you know Pam, I got to kind of give you a shoutout because you’re one of those individuals that I just really appreciate, and again, I got to watch your whole journey unfold in writing your second book but you’re the type of person that genuinely listens and has her year sorted to the concrete as far as like paying attention to the work culture environment and you by just hanging out with your friends, you really listened to what they were asking for and I just love that because not only do you talk about it and the importance of it throughout your book and last book, you really bring it out in this conversation as well. That listening really, in listening I feel like there’s answers sort of provide themself because you are able to see the challenges and opportunity. You are able to see that change is actually just building more resilience and I just appreciate that about your perspective and how you’re able to sort of quickly and in a concise way not only understand what’s sort of needed but also really coming up with a solution and that’s really powerful. Where do you think that drive to not only listen but listen for potential answers or solutions comes from for you?

[0:13:13] Pam Marmon 2: Oh, that is such a great question. I have a profound purpose and that purpose is not rooted in organizations, this is going to sound so funny. I firmly believe that when a leader is successful at being able to orchestrate organizational change, that trickles into teams, it trickles into families, it has an impact on children, it has an impact in our communities, and so that is my outcome. It’s impact globally but I know it starts somewhere and the somewhere that I have influence over is in the change management space. I think we all have influence somewhere, mine happens to be in change and yours happens to be elsewhere and so if we all think of how can we have the greatest impact in the world in the most effective way possible, in the shortest amount of time, I think we will all uncover that for ourselves. Listening is key because if I don’t listen, I can’t solve the problem. I might solve the wrong problem and I think being an effective listener really helps all of us to have greater relationships, more influence, more impact in the world, it is really the beginning of everything that we want to achieve in life.

[0:14:30] HA: Yeah, so powerful and just you know, this idea of putting change in perspective and where it belongs in that, it’s like you need it. You need it like you need water, you need it like you need having your core personal values, it is a part of who you are and it’s a really a part of becoming resilient and you know, I want to talk about that and the idea of scoping things out in the future and what that looks like. What steps can individuals and teams, perhaps, take to become, I guess, more adept to change and more in a way looking forward to it as opposed to resenting it?

[0:15:06] Pam Marmon 2: Absolutely. So when I first started writing the chapter and the section on resilience, I thought this was all about the individual, and as my research piled on, I realized I was wrong. This is not about the individual, this is more about us collectively as a team than it is about me individually as a person and so that was a bit of a revelation because I feel like so many of us focus on, “How can I build my own resilience?” and there is value in that. You know, we should clear mental resilience, emotional, you know there is absolutely things that we can do but I think the most ROI that we can get is when we think of our team resilience and that goes back to culture because the resilient team can overcome a lot of challenges like the pandemic, like a recession, a competitor coming in and bringing in new products that maybe skew off your sales. A resilient team is really at the heart of it, it’s people who trust each other, who understand how to work together, who can navigate difficult conversations, who can negotiate, who can handle conflict, that’s resilience and I think if we focus our effort in becoming better together, we can truly overcome whatever the future throws at our way.

[0:16:21] HA: Yeah, that’s so powerful and you’re right, I mean, it does happen to a leader that can really see the scope of what this change and how it impacts people and you know, just communicating that and being sort of an open book both ways, right? That there’s got to be space opening up so that people can ask, ask to understand, ask to pursue where the positive is and I think highlighting those positives, especially with the changes that we see in our culture today, there is so much happening, right? I think communication now is probably one of the biggest elements that unfortunately is missing. You’re right because if we don’t have strong communication, I feel like that’s when people start to make up stories, right? Because we want to fill the gap and if we sort of are attuned to negative beliefs, then we fill that gap with negative beliefs and I think if we’re attuned and sort of led to think positively about the change then we may change that narrative not only with our self but of course with our teams. I think I just love that. I love how your perspective around change, not only of self of course, but team orientation is so powerful because we’re not out here in the world just doing our own thing forever, right? We always work, to a degree, we’re all working within teams, you know? Even if you are a freelancer, whatever it is, you’re out there working with other people and it is good to think about these things. So I got to – no, go ahead.

[0:17:50] Pam Marmon 2: Absolutely and also on the individual side, I think there may be some helpful things like at the end of the book I actually provide a resilience blueprint for the reader to help them think through attitudes, mindsets, habits, wisdom, gratitude, that there are so many things we can conquer to make us better people, period. Better individuals, better team members, better friends, goals, and visions that we have for ourselves. So there is much ownership that needs to be taken accountability by the individual as well.

[0:18:22] HA: Right, that’s so powerful. Pam, I know, you know again, having seen you kind of go through the journey of writing, I know there was a few moments where there was some, you know, like maybe perhaps overthinking or emotional thinking around the ideas in the book but you did such a good job of just laying them out, really sharing with our group and community and sort of getting into the weeds of why you are feeling that way. Can you talk a little bit about the challenges that came up for you while writing your book?

[0:18:53] Pam Marmon 2: Yeah, writing a book is such a beautiful process. Everything from ideas to putting it on paper to deleting all of it, scratching it off, and starting over, it really is a beautiful process and I am so grateful for it because so many authors find wisdom that was in them that just needed to come out. So for me what was interesting is I write my books quite fairly quickly I guess you would say, maybe within a month or two I have books out. The initial drafts of the books and then I spend four or five months of editing, so it is pretty intense editing and then once the editing is done, I step back and say, “Okay, what is left? What do we take out and what are we keep in?” and I had a moment of self-doubt where I thought, “Is this any good? Is anybody can actually read it and like it? Is this going to help anybody?” and I think that is part of us being human. That’s normal and I think if we normalize the fact that we all have self-doubts and then we all kind of snap out of it, you know, somebody will come along and say, “Get a hold of yourself, this is really good” you don’t necessarily need the validation of all these people to tell you that for, you know, personal raise but just to help you overcome some of the doubts that you may have and I am not immune to those either. I certainly appreciate the journey because the ups and the downs are just part of what it takes to become an author.

[0:20:15] HA: Yeah, I love that so much. What a beautiful answer. So while going through your book as your reader and you hear you’re helping me, you’re sharing the stories, you are sharing things that kind of expand my thinking about change and now that I see this sort of merger happening in the distance, I can look at the opportunities as opposed to just the negatives that are going to come out at this and I love that. What would you say, you know, the number one thing that you want your reader to feel after putting down your book? What is that feeling you hope to evoke?

[0:20:49] Pam Marmon 2: Excitement. I want people to just be excited and yeah, I want them to see opportunities where in the past they might have seen fears. I think that would be a win.

[0:21:03] HA: That’s so powerful, I love that. Excitement, you know that’s one thing we, I feel like need more of in our culture, you know I am just saying it in general but in the sense of seeing change as an exciting thing, you know I got to share that you know, being a refugee, having come to America, lots of changes, right? Identity changes, growth, and all those kinds of things so you and I have a similar story. That when you come to a different world, change is sort of really thrusted upon you compartmentalize it and take it in and sometimes, of course, there is anger, there is frustration but then I feel like all of that turns into compassion and you understand that change is happening alongside you for you to help you grow and see the world in a new way, a new exciting way and I love that you sort of really framed the book around excitement and I just appreciate that because that’s what great listening does. As a leader out there in the world, you know I feel like – well, can I take this issue that people think is an issue and turn it into an exciting opportunity and that is very hard to do. Of course, it takes a lot of effort and I feel like energy and people like you that help teams think of those things in a positive way, so that is really powerful. Pam, is there anything else you’d like to share about this remarkable book and the journey in which you took to put it out in the world?

[0:22:30] Pam Marmon 2: Yes, so change is not happening to you, change is happening for you and if we adopt this mindset, the outcomes will change as well.

[0:22:38] HA: So powerful, I love that. Well, Pam, it’s been an absolute pleasure having you on the show today. Congratulations on book number two, I know the audience is going to certainly resonate with this. I know you have big plans and I can’t wait to see it completely unfold. Speak Up or Stay Stuck: Get Your Voice Heard When Fast and Forced Change Happens in the Workplace. You can get that book on Amazon, so besides checking out the book, where can people find you, Pam?

[0:23:06] Pam Marmon 2: They can find me on LinkedIn, I am happy to connect with anyone listening to the podcast.

[0:23:10] HA: Beautiful. Well, thanks again, Pam. Congratulations.

[0:23:14] Pam Marmon 2: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[0:23:17] HA: Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Author Hour. You can find Pam’s book called, Speak Up or Stay Stuck: Get Your Voice Heard When Fast and Forced Change Happens in the Workplace, right now on Amazon. For more Author Hour episodes, subscribe to this podcast on your favorite subscription service. Thanks for joining us, we’ll see you next time. Same place, different author.