Wayne Reid and Judge Charles Gill: Episode 408

Transcript

[0:00:19] NVN: Today, I have the honor of speaking with Wayne Reid and Judge Charles Gill. These two men’s lives unexpectedly intertwined due to a tragic circumstance. In 1998, Wayne’s brother, Franklin Reid was shot in the back and killed by a police officer. At the time, Franklin was unarmed. The shooting happened in broad daylight after officer Smith and Franklin had known each other for just 41 seconds. Judge Gill presided over the trial that went to court 13 months later. The two of them teamed up to write the book, Death by Cop: A Call for Unity, in which they discuss the circumstances of Franklin’s death, the ensuing trial against officer Smith, and insight into how we might reduce and eventually eliminate unwarranted police civilian shooting. I knew this interview would be fascinating but what I wasn’t expecting was the compassion and hope that I heard from both of these men. Don’t miss this episode of Author Hour. Thank you Wayne and judge Gill for joining us today.

[0:01:23] CG: Our pleasure.

[0:01:24] WR: Likewise.

[0:01:25] NVN: We have two guests and I’m going to have you both introduce yourself, starting with Wayne.

[0:01:33] WR: Yeah, my name is Wayne Reid. I went to the university of Scranton. I am currently an assistant controller in finance at the Porto Novelli. I’ve been working there for nine years and migrated to start doing this book about six years ago which is my new passion.

[0:01:50] NVN: Perfect. Judge Charles Gill?

[0:01:53] CG: Well, I’ve been a superior court judge, trial judge for 35 years, and I happened to be a trial judge in the case where my good friend Wayne’s brother was killed by a police officer.

[0:02:08] NVN: Okay, perfect. You guys have a very unique relationship which I will let you go ahead and speak to.

[0:02:19] CG: Yeah, after the trial in 2000, judge Gill had given my family a business card which essentially a connection which I’ve held for over 13 years. I always believe everything happens for a reason. Through a mutual friend, after a tragic event in 2013, I contacted judge Gill and, you know, I went to his house and for about three hours, we essentially had a therapy session. We shared our feelings about the trial, about the case, and before I left his place, I told him, “You know, judge Gill, I’m thinking about writing a book,” and his next words were, ‘I can help you with that,’ and that’s how our connection started in 2013.

[0:03:03] NVN: Amazing, okay. Wayne, let’s go ahead and dive into the specifics of your story. Tell me about your brother Franklin?

[0:03:13] CG: Franklin was my eldest brother. He was born in 1971. My family is from Jamaica. We migrated to The United States in 1986. Throughout the early 1980s, my mother had applied for permanent residence to the United States. She received a letter from immigration service in 1984 that says both her and her husband, my dad, was accepted but the kids had to stay in Jamaica. She rejected and we waited two more years and in 1986, my family was allowed permanent residence to United States. We moved to New Milford, Connecticut where my mother’s father, or my grandfather, Wilbert Shaw, reside, and from there, you know, we essentially just grew up in New Milford. Franklin, he was about six years older than I was, and he was going through high school when I was in middle school and so forth. He had issues here and there with the local police department. He was a good looking guy, but throughout the early 90s, his issues and a lot of other things that contributed to his run ins with law enforcement. But overall, you know, he was not the perfect brother in terms of not being free from law enforcement or out of the criminal system. He had his issues, which everyone acknowledges that. But at the same time, he was trying to make his life better in many aspects and so forth. He was always there – when I was in high school, I wrestled for New Milford which is the town I currently reside in. He was always there supporting – supported his family, and he was supportive of his three kids as well and so forth.

[0:04:53] NVN: Tell me about the circumstances that ultimately led to Franklin’s death?

[0:04:59] CG: At the time in December 29th, 1998, he had outstanding warrants, I believe they were for breach of peace, failure to appear in court, and he had a bond of 13,500. So he left the house and he was driving on a side road in New Milford and a police officer, officer Kramer, had seen his car and he thought the car was heading his direction towards his lane. But the car had past him and so forth, so Sergeant Kramer thought, “Hmm, maybe the driver is drunk or maybe he is being inattentive so he decided to turn around and follow the car which he found in an intersection with the door wide open. At that time, my brother had exited the car, was walking on foot because he had a flat tire. Sergeant Kramer had contacted dispatch and said that he was out with 840, Frank Charlie Roberts which is the license plate, so between the communications with law enforcement, with dispatch, Sergeant Kramer realized or dispatch realized, that they had warrants for Franklin Reid at the same address, the car was registered to my parents Dwight and Caroline Reid. Sergeant Kramer says, “Okay, maybe that was probably Franklin Reid that bailed and left.” At that same time, detective David Short and officer Scott Smith have returned to the police station after early investigation which is non-related to this incident. Detective Short had visited the dispatch and asked what was going on, and dispatch at Hanford had says, “Maybe you should go give him a hand, Sergeant Kramer is in foot pursuit of a suspect.” Detective Short went back to the detective bureau and asked Scott Smith, “Let’s go, we need to go provide assistance to sergeant Kramer.” So both officers had left the police department in an unmarked surveillance car and they had turned on route 202, which is the main road going through New Milford. At that time, they spotted a black male walking and they were unsure if that was Franklin or not. They decided to turn around at the next intersection which would have been Park Lane West to just get a better view. At that time, Franklin was crossing between Sander’s Cleaner and Sunoco Gas station and officer Scott says, “Yup, that’s Franklin Reid.” So they pulled into the Sunoco gas station and Franklin was about 10 feet in front of their surveillance vehicle and then seconds later, Franklin and officer Scott Smith had eye contact. Franklin started to run. Officer Smith got out of the car and started to chase him, and so forth. They ran across the street. Officer Smith followed pursuit and you know, there was a lot of traffic at that time, you know, a lot of onlookers, a lot of motorists were caught off guard. They slowed down, just to figure out what’s’ going on, because this is something that typically doesn’t happen in New Milford. At that time, Franklin had stopped, put his hands up and officer Smith had withdrew or had taken out his service weapon, his service revolver and was pointed at Franklin. They eventually ended up back on the slight embankment and Franklin eventually ended up on the ground. Officer Smith was standing over him with his foot in his back, holding both hands and his pistol pointed in his back. Now, the story gets a little bit – their versions are a little bit different. Officer Smith’s version’s a little bit different compared to all of the eye witnesses who had saw the incident. Long story short is that officer Smith had – he said that Franklin was making a movement and he pulled the trigger and shot him in broad daylight.

[0:08:54] WR: In the back.

[0:08:55] CG: In the back, yeah.

[0:08:57] NVN: Wow.

[0:08:58] WR: Probably was faced down on the ground.

[0:09:01] NVN: The image of him is on the cover of the book and it is powerful. That image says a lot.

[0:09:11] WR: It certainly does.

[0:09:13] NVN: Wayne, how old were you at this time? He was six years older than you.

[0:09:17] CG: Well, I was 21 years old.

[0:09:18] NVN: You were 21, okay.

[0:09:19] CG: I was in college and at that time, I was actually with the University of Scranton wrestling team in Florida. Every Christmas, we would venture to Florida to participate in the Citrus duel which is about nine or 10 division three schools from across the country, would congregate into Fort Lauderdale so at that time, I had no idea what was happening during the middle of the day, My parents were at the house, you know, they received the call from Franklin’s girlfriend Pamela.I had no idea what was happening from 11:00 until 9:00 that night. After the day of wrestling, we went out to dinner with my wrestling buddies and coach, came back to the hotel, and we have a small contingent of family living in Fort Lauderdale. A family member had came to the hotel and my friends and I were continuing wrestling, you know? Obviously a bunch of wrestlers so we didn’t get enough wrestling during the day so we decided to wrestle at night.

[0:10:21] NVN: Of course.

[0:10:24] CG: You know, we were wrestling, and then eventually, they just all cleared out of the room and I looked behind me and my family member was standing in the doorway and she said, you know, “Wayne, have you spoken to your parents today?” I’m like, “No, not really, is there something wrong?” She’s like – she was very – I knew she looked distraught and she’s like, “Something happened in New Milford today, your brother’s dead.” I’m like, “What? I don’t believe you.” I started laughing. “I don’t believe you.” She was like, “Oh god, you know, give me the strength to tell you, to tell you the words,” and she’s like, “Yeah, he was killed this morning by a police officer.” I didn’t believe her. I was just numb, not believing her. I called my parents and the phone had rang one or two times and then I eventually called back and my mother picked up the phone and her voice was just faint and just like tired. I was like “Mom, is everything okay?” She was like, “Here’s your father.” Put my dad on the phone and you know, his voice was also just tired and faint. I was like, “Dad, is everything okay? Is Mark okay?” Mark is my brother’s name Franklin because what we do in Jamaica from some crazy reason, because without rhyme or reason, we would name, we would call everyone else other names like for example, instead of Franklin, we would call him Mark and most people knew him as Mark. So I was like, “Dad, is Mark okay?” In my Jamaican lingo. He’s like, “I didn’t want to tell you because you're in Florida Wrestling,” and I was like, “Is he okay?” He’s like, “We don’t want to worry you.” I’m like, “Worry me with what?” I was getting a little angry and he’s like, “Yeah, God all mighty, they killed Mark today, killed him dead today,” in his Jamaican lingo. I was like, I was just like frozen and I just couldn’t believe what I was hearing and the room just felt like it was just getting smaller, becoming much smaller, like I was in a confined space, like a hollowed tunnel. I dropped the phone, not knowing what to think and then within a second – it felt like a second to me. I felt I was on the beach alone just sitting there, staring into the dark abyss of the ocean, just thinking about all of the memories that I was going through with Franklin. The times that we had together in Jamaica, you know, when he was in my wrestling events and, you know, the summer of 1998, when we would train at the local gym as I was preparing for wrestling, for the upcoming wrestling season, but all of those thoughts, I had no idea what to be thinking and just thinking about the times, the good times that we had. At that time, you know, I just felt like I just wanted to throw myself into the ocean. That was my initial reaction.

[0:13:12] NVN: I can’t even begin to wrap my head around the shock initially of a situation like this because in my experience, even when it’s a death that’s anticipated to some degree for whatever reason, there’s still always a shock that comes with death, but to have it with someone so young and circumstances that are so incomprehensible and out of the blue, just as a human being, that must be – I can’t even imagine what it would be like to attempt to wrap your head around that.

[0:13:45] CG: Yeah, I mean, when it’s unexpected and it’s shocking, it hurts more than anything else. I think a lot of people or so many other individuals go through the same thing when death is unexpected and shocking, it just tears at the fiber of your family. It just tears up the fiber of who you are because it’s not expected.

[0:14:06] NVN: How did your life change from that moment forward? At least in the immediate aftermath of this?

[0:14:14] CG: I knew my family was going to be torn apart and I knew that someone had to be strong. My initial reaction when I was on the beach. I was looking for someone to blame, you know? When I first came to the United States, when my family came to the United States, one of the first things that we were exposed to was the church which in New Milford at the time was the North Baptist Church with pastor George Grit. To me, it felt like a lot of the sermons that he was preaching was meant for us because that’s how it felt every Sunday. When I was sitting on the beach, I was looking for someone to blame and at the time I was wearing a cross and a necklace and I essentially just ripped the cross off my neck and just threw it in the water and, you know, essentially, I was blaming the Lord for this, blaming God for this and so forth. My teammates came to me and consoled me but at that moment, I realized that I – what I did was unworthy in the eyes of the Lord and I quickly asked forgiveness and so forth. At that moment, I realized that I needed to be strong for my family because everyone else is going to be falling apart so that’s how it changed me, it just changed me to be a much more stronger person for what’s to come.

[0:15:25] NVN: Did you return to Connecticut in the wake of this or did you follow through with your education as you were at the time this happened?

[0:15:34] CG: Yup, my coach was looking for flights that night so he was able to book me on the first available flight back to Pennsylvania. And then I drove back to Connecticut the next day. The good thing, it was in December so I was in the intermission between college. I believe I was a junior so my professors were very understanding. They knew that if I needed to take time off, they would oblige. I didn’t really – I still graduated on time but my professors allowed me the personal time that I needed to be with my family and to go for the trial and so forth.

[0:16:12] NVN: Okay. I’d like to turn our attention toward the trial now. What was the timeframe between Franklin’s death and when this went to trial?

[0:16:23] CG: 13 months. He died December 29th, 1998. He was buried on January 9th, 1999. Officer Scott was charged with murder on January 19th 1999 and he went to trial the following year in February 23rd of 2000.

[0:16:46] NVN: What are those 13 months like as you’re waiting for this to go to trial?

[0:16:51] CG: They were very interesting. Initially after my brother’s death, we didn’t have a lot of supporters. I think one of the things that the police department did, as they do in a lot of other cases where minorities are, you know, killed, is if the individual or the person that dies has a criminal record, that’s the first thing that gets released to the media. So essentially, they’re already painting a picture that this person is a criminal, this person has a long history being involved with law enforcement and so forth. In my view, that essentially tempered public reaction, initially, but after the officer was charged with murder – and it wasn’t anything that my family requested or asked for, it was the state of Connecticut. In Connecticut, it doesn’t have a grand jury system. All of the cases involving police officers goes to a state attorney’s office and a state attorney will review the case, review the statements, review the evidence, and they would make a determination if we need to bring forth any charges. The prosecutor, attorney John Connelly was a special prosecutor, he was appointed by John Bailey, he was the chief prosecutor of Connecticut at that time. He looked at the evidence and officer Smith’s statement, and he said that, you know, “There is no way as a prosecutor that I could turn a blind eye and say that this charge, the shooting, was justified,” and as a result, he decided to charge officer Smith with murder in the line of duty which is a first time that’s ever happened in the state of Connecticut.

[0:18:30] NVN: Wow.

[0:18:31] CG: Those 13 months was very interesting. I think, I believe it was in February of 1999, you know, there was a good amount of police rallies for the officer and they showed up at the courthouse, Richville Courthouse, and we didn’t have a lot of supporters, but I remember when we stepped out on the courthouse steps and we saw a bunch of officers out there, you know, supporting officer Smith, they were calling attorney Connelly ‘Judas.’ Because they believed that he had betrayed police officers, he’s the Benedict of police officers, for bringing charges against officer Scott Smith. Our reaction was like, “Wow.” Our eyes looked completely large. Popping out of our heads on the steps. That’s how a lot of journalists and the reporters caught us, caught our eyes, and that’s what was played on the nightly news and in the newspapers the following day. And as a result of that, a lot of people started to come our way and was like, “Wait a second, that’s a form of intimidation.” And one of our staunchest supporter, Reverend [inaudible: 0:19:38] Lewis, was an activist as well, saw those pictures, and as a result of that, he came to my family’s side and he brought a lot of supporters, a lot of the NAACP in Connecticut, you know, other organizations and a lot of supporters, and as a result of that, we tried to balance the playing field essentially, and so forth. The first 13 months was interesting but it came of pretty good in terms of the supporters and so forth.

[0:20:07] NVN: Judge Gill, in your opinion, Wayne mentioned that this was the first case involving a police officer, if I understand correctly, to go to trial. Do I have that right?

[0:20:18] WR: Yeah, at the charge of murder, yes.

[0:20:21] NVN: Why was this the first one? Do you have any insight into that?

[0:20:26] WR: Probably yeah, the very special factual bases for the case. I might add that Wayne mentioned a special prosecutor in this case, John Connelly. He’s known as the most pro-cop prosecutor in the state of Connecticut. As a matter of fact, you might be interested in this, when gave his final argument to the jury, went to sit down, he was crying. That’s how much respected policeman, okay? What made this case very special of course is because of the facts of the case. I think, you know, you get snippets of this in the media, form both TV and also from court reporters, but you know what? This was a one of a kind case. I’ve been on thousands of them. The words and news of the reporters are actually just words, but this particular product here, I’m not calling it a book because it’s not a book. What it is really is, it’s a drama, and guess what? All this whole action from the cop, Scott Smith, first contact with Franklin Reid was 41 seconds. 41 seconds to determine a young man’s death. As I’m saying, we’re not doing a novel here, rather, we’re doing chapters that we call acts and scenes, like a play, a drama, because that’s what it is.

[0:21:54] NVN: Yeah. Judge Gill, how did you feel when this case landed on your docket?

[0:22:02] WR: Well, you know, I come from a law enforcement family so – and I am also an Irish Catholic and the three of us who were involved in this, the Judge Irish Catholic, prosecutor Irish Catholic and defense lawyer Irish Catholic. So, you know, I might have some chats about us doing things but I can tell you right now, when I was asked to do this, I accepted it because I am a man that’s concerned about justice and nothing else. I don’t care about my Irish stuff or anything else.

[0:22:30] NVN: And tell me, I am curious to hear both of your takes on the trial because you saw, you were in the same place seeing this from different vantage points I am assuming. So Wayne, we’ll start with you. Tell me, what are some of the things that stand out the most in your memory about that trial?

[0:22:48] WR: The most important, you know, is that both families were connected as a result of this incident and I wrote that as of December 29, 1998 both families were connected so –

[0:23:04] NVN: Excuse me, so just to be clear we are talking about your family and the family of Officer Smith.

[0:23:10] WR: Officer Smith, correct. So we are both there for justice. Justice for our loved ones, although what we seek might be different, but the emotional pain that I saw was the same thing that I would say was on the Smith’s family’s face as well. So we were seeking justice and I felt that as a result of that, that is how we were connected throughout the case.

[0:23:36] NVN: What was it like for you being in the room with the Officer Smith?

[0:23:41] WR: I have no animosity against Officer Smith nor his family. You know, I believe that this was an accident and if he had said that from the very beginning, you know, there wouldn’t have been a trial, there wouldn’t have been a long five year trial, but, you know, I believe from how I am raised as an individual coming from being raised in the church and so forth, I believe everything happens for a reason, whether it is good or bad, but I have no hatred or animosity towards Officer Smith and I hope he felt the same way.

[0:24:12] NVN: So five years, Judge Gill can you explain to me how this went on for so long? What were the facts of this trial and perhaps some of the sticking points?

[0:24:22] CG: Of course there is appeals so that is what took a lot of the time but you know, the interesting point about this whole case is that the script for the play includes dozens of quotations from everybody involved. There is no fake news here as they say. It is all in the record and, you know, readers of this particular drama will learn exactly what the jury saw and heard, and then some. They can decide the case, and also this could be an exciting experience for them. Now, being up close and personal, I’ve had so much experience as a judge. I’ve had so many cases, and this particular case was very, very different. I heard the police talking at the scene and Wayne’s brother, a slap with a bullet hole in his back while unarmed. I read in the scripts that his mom falling to the ground crying. You know, these things are very, very unsettling to any human being and we are all about justice here, right? And to tell you the truth, sometimes we can’t always provide in our losses but in this case there was justice. You know, some people thought there was social trauma, politics, but the reality of the facts are important to us to broaden our personal perspectives to a reality moment, to judge without being preach judgmental. As a matter of fact, this case could be the encyclopedia of the Bible, the Quran, or the Tora, of fairness, traits and justice, and I mean justice for everybody. There was no animosity or no hatred. It was only love in that courtroom but sorrow for both families.

[0:25:56] NVN: Amazing and let’s talk about the outcome, what was it ultimately here?

[0:26:03] CG: Ultimately he was found not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter in the first degree and I was set down for sentencing.

[0:26:12] NVN: And how do you both feel about that?

[0:26:15] WR: I felt that he probably didn’t deserve the most heinous crime, which is murder and spending 40 years in jail. I thought my family was pleased with the verdict. I think it was just at that time.

[0:26:27] CG: I kind of agree very much with Wayne because the jury would spend a lot of time on this. They are very wonderful jurors and we get to review them afterwards, and the point of coming not guilty on murder was okay by me actually as a judge because the circumstance of the case, the youthfulness of the officer, his lack of training, and so many other things. I thought it was probably a fair decision. As a matter of fact I know it is a fair decision based upon the evidence that I heard and that the jury heard.

[0:27:02] NVN: Did things change in your district as a result of this after the fact. Has anything like this happened again?

[0:27:10] CG: No and I hope it never will because of this particular writing that Wayne and I have done.

[0:27:16] NVN: Yeah, okay. So let us start to expand out from this specific scenario again. So Wayne, your brother was killed almost 22 years ago and just a few days from when we are recording this and yet all of this time later we see in the news all of these incidents of police civilian shooting, what are your guy’s thoughts having been through this about why we are here right now and what needs to change?

[0:27:48] WR: Heartbreaking to see so many incidents after my brother’s incident for the victim’s families and for the officers involved. It is just a tragedy in my view and it feels like these incidents happens in cycles, you know, so they’ll go from, for example, 2005 to 2007, and then there is a year or two break and then again from 2014 to 2018. So it is heartbreaking to just imagine what other families are going through losing a loved one in a very shocking way and the long audacious trial journey that they would have to encounter.

[0:28:33] CG: I agree. By the way you should know this, that in terms of police officers, 30% of police officers on duty have shot their guns - males. Females, 11% have shot their guns on duty. It tells you something about being restrained doesn’t it?

[0:28:51] NVN: Yeah, so Judge Gill I will start with you, in your mind, what are some of the answers here? How do we start to resolve this?

[0:29:03] CG: Well there are a number of ways to resolve it, probably no cures, but first of all, we should have adequate police training. In this case, Scott Smith had no training as an investigator before he became a detective. He was out of duty, plainclothes for the first time, an unmarked vehicle with not all of the other protective devices he had such as Taser or mace and so the training there was absolutely undone. It was minimal. It was inadequate, and in the course of this book, probably you will read that all of that is true. This poor guy did not have enough training or even back up from the people who is supposed to help him. So that is one thing that has to be changed. The second thing that has to be changed also is, I think, that people ought to have a better attitude towards police and police have a better attitude towards the people that they are supposed to protect, and that has to happen, I think, through community relations and so many other things. But the basic thing here is respect. We have to respect everybody, every person on the street, every person that has a criminal record, every person that is a police officer. It is all the human quality and if we don’t keep that up we are bound to have these incidents again and they’re shocking and they’re sad.

[0:30:25] WR: And I agree completely with Judge Gill. I think that respect is so important. The mutual respect is, I believe, what we need to strive for, by having open discussions about these past incidents, these particular incidents and say, “You know, these things occurred, let us learn from this case, let us learn from other cases so that we could come together as communities, with law enforcement and find a permanent solution so that we could move forward and avoid these incidents in the future.” And that is the overall message of our book. That is what we are trying to do is to say that these things occurred but let us learn from these incidents and we can move forward as communities as a nation together.

[0:31:12] NVN: Wayne, can I ask you what your thoughts on law enforcement are after having gone through this in such a personal way?

[0:31:19] WR: You know I have always the highest respect for law enforcement. My best friend is in the military and I have other friends and family that is also police officers in the military. So I have always held law enforcement in the highest regard before my brother’s incident and after my brother’s incident, and that is going to continue in the future as well. So, you know, I know the job that they do. I am not a police officer and so forth and hats off to what they do. They have a difficult task and you know they protect all of us. We need them, and that’s where the mutual respect for law enforcement, for police officers, comes from, and I believe that is a message we just need to deliver for the rest of the country, that they are human beings just like you and I. They are mothers and fathers, sons and daughters, and brothers and sisters, but they are held at a different standard. At the same time they are there to protect us not to hurt us in most instances. So if we can move towards more of community relationships and discussing the issues, and continue to discuss the issues, I believe that we can hopefully move the needle towards having mutual respect between community members and law enforcement.

[0:32:30] NVN: I cannot think of a more powerful person to hear that from than someone coming from a situation like yours.

[0:32:38] WR: Thank you. I appreciate it.

[0:32:40] NVN: Let’s talk about how the two of you specifically came together. So you started this in 2013, which is quite a while after this trial has come to an end. How did you come together and why did this happen when it happened?

[0:32:57] WR: You know, I think we just mentioned one line in the book and, you know, the tragic event that occurred in 2013 was Officer Smith committed suicide, and as a result of that, I felt the pain and – at that time, and for months afterwards, I was like, “You know, I think it is time to write a book,” you know? So when I met Judge Gill in November 2013, we shared our feelings about the case and I said, “You know, Judge, I am planning to write a book” and he said, “I can help you with that.” So it was a lot of research. I mean we did a lot of research, read, you know, thousands and thousands of pages to ensure that the book is 100% factual and it is down the middle. It is balanced, it is not biased in either direction. So that is probably the main reason I started to write the book, but then in 2014, between 2014/2018 there was an uptick in police involved shootings and then I was like: “You know what? Why not tell our story so that we can assist others to either to tell their personal stories or help them through their tragic moments or periods, and then hopefully aid to have an end to this cycle of police involved shootings?” So that is one of the reasons why, one of the many reasons why we’d decided to write a book. Although it says it took six years, there is times that most writers would say that you have writers block, and, you know, I would take six months or nine months off, because it was just emotion. It was just the emotional stress of reliving the period, and, you know, as an example, interviewing my parents, you know, bringing them back down memory lane. It was particular difficult, you know, hearing how they saw their first born son in the hospital. You know, what they saw, him lying, peacefully, his eyes closed in a permanent sleep with tubes sticking out of him. You know, that was painful and difficult to write and, you know, what my mother went through during the trial and even before the trial in the 90s. So, I feel inspired by my mother, for one. You know, she stood up for her son, for her loved one. So we try to talk about the strength of a mother, the strength of a woman throughout the book as well. So those are some of the things why I decided to write the book and why it took so long.

[0:35:28] NVN: Wow, I mean, let me tell you, I know about writers block and I don’t have any actual reasons for those. That’s all very legitimate, but I think you can argue too that the timing does feel right for this, also more so than it would have had this released in 2014 or 2015.

[0:35:48] WR: Yes, I agree 100%. So when we actually finished our manuscript in 2017 and I was like, “Judge Gill, this is it! This is the time! We feel this is the time to get the product out to the market,” but it just wasn’t right. It was not complete. So we started to work with our editor, Tracy Hart, in 2017 and we actually worked with her for about a year and a half, two years, and she was fantastic. She was incredible. So she essentially just said, “You know what? This is great but it needs to be developed. You need to separate your ideas because the way you write, you write as you are thinking and you may understand it and Judge Gill might understand it but someone else might not understand what you are trying to say.”

[0:36:34] NVN: It is so true.

[0:36:35] WR: So, you know, she would say, “Okay, here are my suggestions. You go back and you make all the corrections,” and so forth because that’s what – you know, she was a great editor because she was like, “I am not going to write or rewrite your manuscript for you. You are going to do it yourself. I am just here just to revise it and help you to make it more concise.” So that’s why it took a little longer with her as well and we feel proud that we spent the time because it is such a serious case and a serious subject that we needed to make sure that we put all the time to get it right.

[0:37:07] NVN: Yeah, it makes perfect sense. I am curious if you guys have been in touch with the Smith family at all throughout this.

[0:37:14] CG: Actually no but we have sent what I call messengers to deliver messages of reconciliation or at least chat with them but they have been unsuccessful. We are still on that track right now. I should tell you this, you know, that Scott Smith’s father has passed away since his trial too.

[0:37:34] NVN: Wow.

[0:37:35] WR: Yeah, it is one of my personal – it is one of the things that I’d like to do is to get in contact with Mrs. Smith and, you know, just have a conversation with her, with her and my mother. I think that imagery of both mothers sitting down could go such a long way. It would be so powerful in order to move the needle towards reconciliation and the mutual respect but you know what? It doesn’t matter what side you are on, if both these individuals could come together and have a discussion 22 years later, 21 years later then yeah, as a country, as community members we can come together.

[0:38:10] NVN: Absolutely. So going through all of this, I am curious what you guys feel hopeful about right now? I get this note – obviously this is such a tragic story but to me, first of all, hearing you guys together and Wayne, hearing – you’re both so balanced at but Wayne, especially you with what you have been through, it would be so easy to have taken another path, one of bitterness and resentment and that’s not where you are at all. So, let’s talk about the hope that there is to be found here.

[0:38:48] WR: I think – we started our campaign about a month ago and a couple of the comments that I have received are just compassion and some people are saying that, “I just lost a loved one in a very shocking way and I just feel empowered. I just feel courageous for what you are doing or for what you are saying.” So I think that is the hope is that we can offer courage to others and hopefully opportunities for them to tell their personal stories. And I do hope that through our our tragic period, we can assist others to get through their tragic moments as well. That is my hope in addition to hopefully bridging the gap between law enforcement and community members.

[0:39:39] NVN: How about you Judge Gill?

[0:39:41] CG: Oh well I couldn’t agree more of course. This particular publication is an American literally original. It is original in many ways because of what Wayne has told you and I have told you and I always would tell you in the publication. It is also another breakthrough, I think, in America. You know, I think the more people that understand what happened here will not be so full of hatred but of understanding and that is a great attribute to have in any country in the world, particularly the world we both love.

[0:40:14] NVN: You know, what occurred to me as you were saying that Judge Gill is that all of these tragic stories about police civilian shootings, we are not reading about them in long form. We get these media snippets that are – who knows how much of this story they are but they are snippets for something that is much bigger than that and you have said this so many times and I just want to agree with it that having the opportunity to sit down and really read something like this and understand the bigger story, it is incredibly powerful. I am glad that this opportunity is out there.

[0:40:49] CG: And guess what? You are absolutely right because anybody looking at this drama and the pictures that are in it could be the jury. That is what we encourage them to be. The juries in the case decided and guess what? I think it’s a layup.

[0:41:08] NVN: So I want to bring this back home to end this interview and Wayne, ask you, what do you feel is Franklin’s legacy?

[0:41:17] WR: You know, it is unfortunate that he lost his life when he was killed in 1998, but I believe that everything happens for a reason, good or bad, and I believe that now is the time to tell his story, and hopefully by telling and sharing his story and Officer Smith’s story, we can move the needle towards having a better community relationship between law enforcement and police officers. You know, some people are not going to agree with the case. You know, they are going to call Franklin a criminal because he has a criminal record and so forth, which is okay. Because you have a criminal record or you have a warrant for breach of peace or for failure to appear, you know, that doesn’t carry the death sentence and so forth, but I feel that his legacy will be, he would have aided through his story to bring people together, to bring communities together and so forth.

[0:42:16] NVN: Thank you so much to both of you for joining us today. Thank you for providing this book. Let our listeners know where they can find more about each of you and more about the book.

[0:42:27] WR: Yes, so the book is going to be available on January 14th, 2020 on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Audible for the audio book, Kobo and you can find us on @thewayneried on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, LinkedIn and Twitter.

[0:42:49] NVN: All over.

[0:42:50] WR: All over.

[0:42:53] CG: Let’s go.

[0:42:58] NVN: Judge Gill?

[0:42:59] CG: Yes.

[0:43:00] NVN: Did you have anything to add to that?

[0:43:02] CG: No, thank you very much for your questioning and the interview is very, very excellent and very well done.

[0:43:08] NVN: Thank you. You guys, this is just stunning. Again, thank you for sharing all of this with me.

[0:43:13] WR: Thank you Nikki, I appreciate it. This was excellent.

[0:43:15] CG: Great job, it’s just a great job.

[0:43:16] WR: Thank you very much.

[0:43:18] NVN: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Author Hour. You can find Death by Cop, on Amazon. For more Author Hour, hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast service. Thanks for joining us, we’ll see you next time. Same place, different author.