Ashley Welch and Justin Jones: Episode 64

Transcript

[0:00:29] Charlie Hoehn: You’re listening to Author Hour, enlightening conversations about books with the authors who wrote them. I’m Charlie Hoehn. Today’s episode is with Ashley Welch and Justin Jones, the coauthors of Naked Sales. Is your sales team doing the same thing they did last year and the year before? If so, this episode is for you. In this conversation, Ashley and Justin are going to teach you their unique approach to sales. Where they incorporate design thinking so that you can have a deeper relationship with your customers. So much in fact that they will never want to stop working with you. Whether you work on an inside sales team or with a group of field reps with multimillion dollar portfolios, this episode is for you. Now, here is our conversation with Ashely and Justin

[0:01:36] JJ: I remember sitting at a café with Ashely and Will Anastas in San Francisco, it was a really nice afternoon and at the time, Will was the senior vice president at Sales Force and all Ashley and I had was the strong hunch, we really believe there is something there and in some ways, we hadn’t quite sort of formulated or finessed the language. So, Will was really great because he was more than game to think out loud with us and sort of meander through our rust thinking and it clicked. He could hear in what we were describing, instances of when his very best account executives had knocked it out of the park and he could hear similarities between what we were describing about how designers approach human centered problem solving with what his very best account executives were doing. That I think was really sort of the runway moment when sale by design was born and started to taxi toward takeoff.

[0:02:46] AW: That’s exactly what I was thinking about. I would say that’s the back of the napkin moment because we were writing on napkins and we said, the three of us just said, “Let’s do this, let’s try this, we believe there’s something here, let’s try it,” and there was.

[0:03:01] Charlie Hoehn: That’s awesome. Before we get into what those things were, that the best account executives were doing and the principles that ultimately laid the groundwork for Naked Sales. Can you guys talk about some of the results that you’ve gotten for your clients now that you’ve been able to codify this work?

[0:03:26] AW: Yeah, I’d love to. We just finished working with three different teams, each team was about 12 people and at the end of working with the three teams, we had them report out on their results of working with us over the last three months and across those three teams, the pipeline for them went up by 15 million dollars. Those are pretty significant results on their own but this also happened during summer months, it was June, July and August and that’s usually when the pipeline goes down. Not only did they gain revenue in pipeline but it was creating a stability and even a rise in pipeline in months that are usually down months. That’s one example, another example is another 33 reps that we work with, we have the company always measure what happens in the accounts that they’re working on. With a group of 33 reps and 66 accounts the pipeline went up 120% over three months and then we measured what happened to ACV or annual contract value over six months, and the revenue had gone up by a 170%, adding millions of dollars to their top line. The results have been pretty phenomenal and I think we’re correct in stating that no team has achieved anything less than 100% increase in pipeline when they work through this process with us.

[0:04:46] Charlie Hoehn: That’s phenomenal and what kind of teams are you working with? Is this for corporate enterprise or do you work with smaller, you know, smaller businesses, what kind of teams?

[0:04:58] AW: Yeah. They’re all sales professionals and the focus of the sales professional does vary. Some of them are enterprise sales leaders, which means they have big accounts and they may just have two multimillion dollar accounts. Others are – they call them enterprise corporate sales, well actually, others are smaller tier accounts and their average account deal may be around 150,000 versus multimillion. Then we also work with inside sales reps who are the ones really dialing for dollars. They don’t have a large revenue charter or no revenue target at all but they may have a number of touches or people that will respond to them as their quotas. It runs the gamut from enterprise sales to insight sales, in terms of who we work with.

[0:05:49] JJ: I’ll add a couple of frames around that as well, in addition to the size of the account a sales professional might be leading or managing that we worked with, we’ve also worked with people at different stages of the sales process. We’ve worked with sales teams who are – you know. The tip of the spear, cold calling, just generating initial interest, to prospecting. We worked with sort of your typical account executives who really sort of owns relationship and is carrying the deal, the transaction across the finish line. Then sort of at the back end is also true, we worked with account managers who in some organizations sort of are responsible for the care and feeding and that relationship over time. We’ve seen very strong results in each of these categories of sales or account professionals.

[0:06:42] Charlie Hoehn: Interesting.

[0:06:44] AW: Lastly, one of the thing I think is relevant is we work across verticals. They’ll often be a mixed group, some people will be focused on pin serve, other health and life sciences, others retail and we’re also just about to do a session totally focused on one vertical which is health and life sciences.

[0:07:02] Charlie Hoehn: Excellent. Across the board, different types of sales reps in different types of industries, this stuff works. Naked Sales, the subtitle is How Design Thinking Reveals Customer Motives And Drives Revenue. Can you guys distil like the one big idea and I know it’s basically applying design thinking to sales. Can you explain that so that our listeners, three months from having heard this episode, they can still remember that big idea in this book?

[0:07:36] JJ: Yeah, I can take a task at that. I think that the big idea of Naked Sales is stripping away all the complexity that is inherent in today’s sales cycles and getting it down to its essential human quality which is focusing on your clients. What they’re trying to solve for and ideally, even getting connected with the client’s customers so that you really understand their business. Because your client’s customer is the one stake holder everybody should care about. If you can sort of reduce everything to its simplest form which I think design helps you do by focusing on people that drive and generate value. Everything else falls into place. Ashley, how would you say it?

[0:08:31] AW: Yeah, I would say something similar. I think if there’s one take away I would say from Naked Sales, it’s focus on what your customer cares about and what does your customer’s customer care about. Use that information and what you learn to start a conversation with your client and to find that out, you have to do some research.

[0:08:52] Charlie Hoehn: What your customer’s customer care about?

[0:08:55] AW: Yeah. If your customer is a healthcare agency or organization. Their customer or one customer’s care is the patient’s. What do the patients really care about when they come to that health facility or organization?

[0:09:12] Charlie Hoehn: Right, once you know that. I guess just walk me through how a typical team might have a convoluted sales process or a complicated one and how you strip away and get to the essentials? If we want to stick with the healthcare provider, that’s fine.

[0:09:28] AW: Okay, I think most times, sales people go in to a client system, let’s say a health system and say “Hey, we’ve got Health Cloud and this is how it can help you be more efficient and here are all the features and here are the amazing use cases we have from other industries that we’ve worked on similar to yours,” and that’s the way the conversation starts. What we talk about is, forget about what you’re selling for a moment, go really do some discovery on what your client cares about and what your client’s customers care about and use that information to start a different kind of conversation about value. For example, in the healthcare organization. One of the account executives went to the healthcare facility, noticed for example that one of their values was around patient kindness and he watched them and he saw that in action. He saw doctors hugging patients, he saw a lot of warmth. What he also saw is that their technology was extremely outdated and that it was anything but kind. Therefore, he was able to – after talking to them and seeing this, raise this as a conversation and say, “I see an inconsistency here. You speak about patient kindness and you clearly demonstrate it but your technology’s so outdated that it’s creating frustration on the side of your patients as well as administrators.” Let’s have a conversation about that. It’s a very authentic, real conversation that the client actually did care about versus starting with, let’s talk about my product and services and how it can change your world.

[0:11:08] Charlie Hoehn: The big idea is really instead of coming with your own agenda of selling your product or service on your terms, you are viewing the world through your client’s eyes first and speaking to their strongest desires and their greatest interest and their customer’s greatest interest.

[0:11:28] AW: Exactly.

[0:11:30] Charlie Hoehn: Got it. You have something in the book about curiosity prompts, the four curiosity prompts. What are those?

[0:11:41] JJ: A curiosity prompt are very helpful, small things that sales people can practice noticing and the great thing about these prompts is that they’re everywhere. There’s plenty of opportunity to practice using them and the idea is that in every interaction, one or more of these are present but we typically – because we have an agenda, we have an idea of what kind of – Ashley used the example of Health Cloud solution earlier. We’re already thinking about how we can best position that. Maybe even before we walk into the meeting room or jump on the call with a client. Because of our focus on these other areas, we miss this really interesting moments that happen in any interaction and to an extent, we can get better at seeing these prompts and talking about them. They make those interactions very authentic. It’s instantaneous authenticity. They build rapport and it opens the dialogue and it invites clients to share more about what’s going on, what’s important to them and why. The prompts are first off, just noticing anything that catches you as surprising or anything that’s unexpected that comes up in the conversation and when we talk with sales people about – do they mention these and if not, why not? The typical answer is invariably no, we don’t talk about surprising things because we got six of the agenda. We’ve got to make sure we hit all of our topics and the outcomes and move the conversation forward. They brush past these really interesting, surprising things that come up and in so doing, they miss an opportunity to learn from the client.

[0:13:36] Charlie Hoehn: Could you give an example of this Justin? Of like how the conversation would flow between the sales person and the client?

[0:13:45] JJ: Yeah. We had an account executive who was having a really hard time getting a conversation going with Starbucks. He decided to go and visit a Starbucks store after hours and was chatting up the manager and was just asking about some pain points. I think the questioning after was you know, “What’s the bane of your existence in your role here as a store manager?” And she said, “The milk binder”. That surprised him because you know, Starbucks is very much seen as a purveyor and seller of coffee but she was focused on milk. Instead of just kind of brushing that to the side and keeping the conversation going, he said “Wow, that surprises me, I wouldn’t have expected you to say that. Can you tell me about this binder?” She brings it out, it’s a thick binder, plops it on the counter and then he starts paging through soy milk, skim milk, 2% and starts talking about how they have all of these funky processes, these work around’s for managing varieties, temperature, storage, expiration dates of these milk products and it’s really painful. He sends an email off to the CIO after that meeting and says ‘Hey, I hear the milk binder could use some innovation and he gets a meeting.” The idea is that, big things can come from these really small, like micro interaction moments but only if you’re paying attention. If you’re curious and watching for those to show themselves.

[0:15:25] Charlie Hoehn: Love that, that’s a great story. And the question, “What is the bane of your existence?” might be the greatest sales prompt ever.

[0:15:39] AW: I also want to say that the four prompts that we ask sales people to look for when they’re curious about their customer, or their customer’s customer is, what surprises you? Where do you see value or where do you see places where people value something? Where are there hacks or workarounds? Where are people trying to get around the system to make it work for them and fourthly, where do you see inconsistencies? They say one thing but the do something else. In any four of those instances, that’s a great place for you to double down and ask more instead of just moving on.

[0:20:14] Charlie Hoehn: Author Hour is sponsored by Book in a Box. For anyone who has a great idea for a book but doesn’t have the time or patience to sit down and type it out, Book in a Box has created a new way to help you painlessly publish your book. Instead of sitting at a computer and typing for a year, hoping everything works out, Book in a Box takes you through a structured interview process that gets your ideas out of your head and into a book in just a few months. To learn more, head over to Bookinabox.com and fill out the form at the bottom of the page. Don’t let another year go by where you put off writing your book. Yeah, let’s go through each one of these. I don’t recall the second one. Was the second one where are the hacks, where are they’re trying to get around it?

[0:17:13] AW: The second one I said was around value. Value your customer’s value.

[0:17:17] Charlie Hoehn: Okay. Yeah, this is kind of – this is a word that gets thrown out a lot, right? How do I add value? A lot of people just, they don’t know necessarily what this means specifically. Definitely give an example for this one please.

[0:17:34] AW: Sure. Well, I think about value in this case to even simplify it further is, what do people care about? An example is a mortgage company, an account executive was working with them and literally, just said, “What do you care about?” The mortgage company said, “We care about timely, validated disclosures. Because if we can get a validated disclosure, we can move the mortgage process along more quickly and satisfy our customers.” But when they’re held up, that causes problems for all of us. The account executive knew that if their software could help them get validated disclosures faster, he could really help solve a real problem for his client.

[0:18:19] Charlie Hoehn: I love that. For some reason, this made me think of a friend of mine, his uncle was one of the top negotiators in New York and he was working with politicians, the people who created the city like Robert Moses, you know? Way back in the day. He was such a great negotiator and his secret was simply getting the people in the room and asking them, “What is it that you want? Don’t tell me why you want it. Just tell me what you want. Spare me all the emotional stuff. Just tell me.” It sounds like what you're saying is just, “What you really care about?”

[0:18:59] AW: Care about, yeah. I know, so many of these things are so simple and yet they get lost in our complexity of all the things we think we’re supposed to know and all the information we have at our fingertips.

[0:19:15] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah. The third one is hacks, right? They’re looking for shortcuts. How do you notice this?

[0:19:27] AW: Yeah, well, I think you notice it – one of the best ways to notice it is if you can get close to your customer and get into the office or building or facility of your client and you can – have them show you around or you can say hey, let’s say you’re talking about forecasting. “Can you actually show me how you forecast?” And this is another example, it was something similar to that question and the person pulled up their own loan, excel spreadsheet and the guy said, “Wait a second, you created your own software essentially or your own process because your current system doesn’t work for you?” And they said, “Yeah and this one works great for us.” So that’s a hack and a hack is a great clue into an unmet need. So of course you want to then say, “Well tell me about why the other system didn’t work for you and what does this solve for you?”

[0:20:19] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah, I like that. Our company I know a lot of us use, have you heard of the program Zappier?

[0:20:26] AW: No.

[0:20:27] Charlie Hoehn: So what Zappier does is it allows you to link applications together. So if for instance for this podcast, when I have it edited there’s a lot of stuff that goes into it. It may not look like it but there are a lot of different steps that happen along the chain such as passing it along to an editor with the correct notes, passing it along passing the transcript along to a virtual assistant who formats it for a blog post who then has that sent to another copywriter who optimizes it to SEO and adds in imagery. And all that stuff and for the most part I have this down to just once the file is in the Dropbox folder, the rest sort of takes care of itself and it’s because once that action is completed, it triggers all of these other steps automatically, so I don’t have to do it every time. So I don’t have to email each person individually, every time it does it for me. So I have thought about that like, why isn’t there a program that makes this that streamlines this process. Why did I have to spend so much time building this?

[0:21:45] AW: Yep, exactly.

[0:21:47] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah, interesting. Okay awesome so –

[0:21:49] JJ: I think one of the key differences between what you described Charlie and what’s happening in a lot of client systems that sales people call on is customers often aren’t really aware of their hacks. You know once you come up with a good hack, it just becomes your normal. It’s the way you do it. Sales people, we are really well positioned to see that because we are looking at it from the outside. So to the extent we do notice it and then talk about it, we can uncover some of the hidden interest, like you just described to Zappier. Most of the time plants don’t even realize they’ve forgotten that they came up with this hack because it’s been working for them. Even though if you talked to them about it they’ll say, “Yeah, you know this isn’t ideal. This is a milk binder.”

[0:22:43] Charlie Hoehn: Yep, exactly. I love that so before we get into the final one what are salespeople supposed to do when they noticed these hacks? What do you recommend to them?

[0:22:57] JJ: It’s as simple as just raising it up in the conversation, you know as soon as you notice it to say innocently, “Wow! This is interesting. This thing is like a work around.” And to reflect that back to the client and ask them, what it is about what you noticed that is a value to them, why they came up with the hack in the first place, what it was that they were trying to solve? Once you understand the surround of that, usually that conversation helps the customer start to see. “Yeah, there could be something better,” and it really opens up the dialogue because it shows genuine interest on your part as a sales person and the customer has learned something with you in the moment. It’s a really great sort of authentic thing to share with the client.

[0:23:53] AW: I think one other point to make is we’re not always suggesting that there is a one to one correlation. Like the hack that you observed is going to link directly to the service that you have to offer. It might but what we are saying is that it’s a way to get into a very authentic conversation with the client about what they care about and it can lead you then to a much bigger conversation regarding opportunity to work together by starting with something that is authentic and real for them.

[0:24:25] Charlie Hoehn: Absolutely, it makes perfect sense and the final prompt, what was is again?

[0:24:32] AW: Yeah, inconsistencies.

[0:24:34] Charlie Hoehn: Inconsistencies, yeah what’s that about?

[0:24:37] AW: Yeah, so that’s when you see something that’s inconsistent. Somebody says something but somebody is doing something else, or they say it is a great priority but they are haven’t funded it. So another example, a real example was an account executive who had our retail card manufacturer as a client and she know from her online research that they were trying to appeal to millennials, and she herself is a millennial, and she went to one of their stores. And she found it incredibly unappealing as a millennial and very old school and she also downloaded their app, which is another attempt of them to appeal to the millennial generation and the app didn’t work very well. So she used that information when she got a meeting with the executives to say, “I love your brand, I’ve always loved your brand. I want you to be successful and let me just point something out here that I experienced.” And she pointed to those inconsistency. And actually that account is another story in our book that became a million dollar account in less than a year from zero and that’s where it started with this conversation.

[0:25:45] Charlie Hoehn: Wow, that’s really good. I am reflecting on some of the most successful sales that I’ve had in my short career, have been following the methodology that you two are laying out right now. Basically saying these exact same things which is, “I’m a huge fan of your work, I love what you do, I am a huge supporter of your work but I noticed that you’re trying to accomplish these goals while there is this inconsistency going on here on your site,” or whatever. “I am guessing it is probably because you may not have the resources to take care of it right now or it’s too tedious or time consuming. Why don’t you let me take that over for you?”

[0:26:34] AW: Or “I don’t know what it is, tell me more about it?”

[0:26:37] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah, right. Yeah, exactly I mean I can attest that this stuff is really effective. I really love the question, “What is the bane of your existence?” I’ve never heard it phrased that way. It truly is, you know there is this concept in sales that I’ve always liked which is, “Desperate buyers only,” which is like people who really want the solution now. The pain point is very sharp and they are looking for solutions because it’s the most effortless sale and it’s the people who are ready to have that talk. So I’ve heard other marketers and salespeople phrase it as, “What is the biggest challenge that you are facing right now?” But that wording doesn’t really get to the core of the seriousness of the problem. So, I really like how you two phrase that. That’s really great.

[0:27:30] AW: Because there’s that emotional side through it.

[0:27:32] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah, absolutely. So is there anything else in the book – oh I’m sorry Justin, go ahead.

[0:27:39] JJ: No Charlie, I was just thinking about the question that you asked us earlier about what do this curiosity prompts help you do. As I was listening to our conversation and the examples they’ve been sharing back and forth together, you know curiosity prompts don’t make you a better problem solver. In other words, they don’t make you better and faster at closing and deal with desperate customers. These prompts make you a better problem binder. They increase the likelihood that you will discover even more that you will have a bigger and bigger and bigger conversation with the client that is very authentic, in terms of the quality of the rapport. That just leads to all kinds of good things and that’s what we’ve been finding with our clients.

[0:28:30] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah so tell me about your clients? What have been the transformation they have seen personally once they’ve opened themselves up to these new questions that they can ask? What was it like before for them and what was it like after?

[0:28:47] JJ: I love that question because you were asking us about results earlier and of course in sales we always go to the client. You know, what are the dollars and that’s very important because we in sales are very motivated by the numbers. We’ve seen some really interesting qualitative or experiential shifts in the people that we worked with. I will say in newer sales people, people who are newer to the sales session, we’ve helped them feel – They talk about feeling more confident and authentic more quickly. You know they have come fresh out of some of their other onboarding training and they have their scripts and they feel very mechanical and they don’t like it. They feel like they are just delivering a line and then they want to go take a shower because it just doesn’t feel good. After working with us and this methodology, they feel like they can just show up as themselves, be genuinely curious and engaged and have a great time. And then for our more tenured professionals, people who have been in the business for decades, it’s really exciting to see them having fun again. Because they know their products, they know their services so well, they even know their clients, their industry verticals and it can get monotonous. Everything starts to look like a nail and we have the same hammer for each one and this brings some freshness into the engagement. People talk about feeling like they did years ago, when they first started. So that’s also really exciting to see.

[0:30:38] Charlie Hoehn: Yeah, it sounds like its beginner’s mind you know? There’s this great quote that I love that says, “The truth that you believe and cling to makes you unavailable to hear anything new and it sounds like this just opens up everybody to listen to these new truths.

[0:30:58] AW: Yeah, I think that’s right.

[0:30:59] JJ: That’s very well said.

[0:31:00] AW: Yeah, one other example I wanted to give you is I love this example from one of the account executives at Sales Force, Matt and he said, “You know what I realized was after having taken the sale by design program, I realize that before I was selfish by design. Everything was oriented to ‘I’m calling you, I am asking you, my potential customer, for you time. I want to tell you about what I am selling. I want to try to close the deal because I need to make my quota’” etcetera. And he said, “This methodology has flipped it for me and I realized it is not about me. It is about my customer and that I know now how to change my actions. I just see through a different lens now because I’m much more oriented about thinking about first, what does the customer care about not what do I want to sell.”

[0:31:56] Charlie Hoehn: I love that and this is a bit of a leading question, but how is it transformed people’s relationships outside of work because this is really about being a better listener, a better person right? In relationships.

[0:32:10] AW: Yes, you’re right. Well it’s funny you say that because he said, “Now I recently went to a wedding and I realized they didn’t design it all from my point of view. There was no bus to take me when I’ve been drinking” and he said, “It was very inconvenient for me”. So he just got married and he said, “When we were planning our wedding I totally took a different view. I put myself in the shoes of the people who are attending the wedding and we designed from that stand of point.”

[0:32:38] Charlie Hoehn: I love it, any other stories that come to mind?

[0:32:41] JJ: Yeah, I was just coaching an account manager yesterday and he’s been around for a while. He’s had a very successful career and he’s very chatty and he will readily make fun of himself for being a talker and so he kept saying, “You know Justin, yeah I get it. I need to shut up. I need to listen. I need to be quiet so that’s what I did. I went into this meeting with a client, I didn’t have an agenda. I asked an open-ended question and I shut up.” And he had a great experience, the client told him about two initiatives that he didn’t know about before and it led to some great opportunities and then he said, “I did the same thing at home and my wife commented on it immediately. She asked me if something was wrong.” So you know it really is about being a whole person and once you start doing this, it sort of feeds on itself – that it has this virtuous cycle that affects our personal as well as our professional lives, which is a good thing.

[0:33:50] Charlie Hoehn: I can’t ask for more than that. That’s great. So I’m curious the book has been out for about, it looks like about a month now. So it’s just starting to take roots in the sales community I guess. What kind of results have you heard from readers or stories have you heard from people who just read the book, who haven’t necessarily been coached by you but they took some insight from the book?

[0:34:22] AW: Well it actually has just officially launched today.

[0:34:26] Charlie Hoehn: Oh right. I saw an Amazon that said, “Publication date September 26th”.

[0:34:32] AW: Yeah, so we went live on Amazon last week but only to friends and family for the free ebook and then today it launched officially.

[0:34:43] Charlie Hoehn: So it just began its life cycle.

[0:34:47] AW: Yes but I’m sure it’s already transformed millions. I just haven’t heard from them yet.

[0:34:53] Charlie Hoehn: Fair enough. I mean it sounds like based on everything you said, it sounds like this is a book that makes such a huge impact on business and – or on a person’s business, the company that they work for, their team, their clients, the client’s customers and even their own lives with their personal – with their family, their significant others. So it sounds like an awesome book. I’d love for you guys to give our listeners a challenge. Maybe one thing that they can try out today or this week in their sales role.

[0:35:33] AW: Yeah.

[0:35:34] Charlie Hoehn: To see what the effect is.

[0:35:36] AW: Okay, I’d love to offer one challenge. Is ask one more why, like “Why do you do that? Tell me why that’s important to you.” One more why. Than you feel comfortable asking. Because most of us will ask “Why?” once. But we don’t ask a second and a third time. The challenge is, ask it one more time than you’re actually comfortable doing and see what happens.

[0:36:02] Charlie Hoehn: Why?

[0:36:04] AW: Because you’re going to see, it’s going to change your life.

[0:36:06] Charlie Hoehn: Okay, well I just completed the challenge. So yeah, I’m pretty proud of myself.

[0:36:11] AW: Do that at home and do it with your customer.

[0:36:15] Charlie Hoehn: Awesome, do you concur Justin?

[0:36:18] JJ: Yeah, I will give you a more specific – Well, I don’t know if this is more specific. I would like for you, sales person, to find a way to see your client the way their customers do. Whether that means buying their product online or in a store or hearing form actual customers about what they offer and why that’s valuable to their customers. That is a powerful perspective that most of your competitors won’t bring to the conversation. Talk to your customer’s customer.

[0:36:54] Charlie Hoehn: That’s going deep, I really like that one. I am definitely going to incorporate some of these prompts into my sales agendas that I have myself. So thank you for that and how can our listeners connect with and follow you guys and I know you’re doing the Dream Force event in – Is that coming up in December?

[0:37:15] AW: No, it’s actually November, the week of November 6th, yes, I’ll be skipping on a panel on Tuesday morning. I’m actually in a movie called The Story Of Sales and a panel but another place to follow us is on LinkedIn, is the best place. We have a LinkedIn page for our company and then we both have individual LinkedIn pages and that’s a great place to follow us and our website. It has new information on it as well and lots of case studies and vlogs and videos.

[0:37:45] Charlie Hoehn: Excellent. Ashley Welch and Justin Jones. Follow them on LinkedIn, connect with them, this was great. Thank you so much you two, this was really good.

[0:37:58] AW: You’re welcome, thank you.

[0:38:00] JJ: Charlie, thank you. Yeah.

[0:38:02] Charlie Hoehn: Many thanks to Ashley and Justin for being on the show. You can buy their book, Naked Sales on amazon.com. Thanks again for listening to Author Hour, enlightening conversations about books with the authors who wrote them. We’ll see you next time.