Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Episode 819

Transcript

[0:00:00] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: I think that for me what is really behind the book is to challenge work itself, to challenge paradigms, mental models that we are used to have, right? And that just because they are given doesn't mean that they cannot change, or we cannot do differently. So the book is a call for people that want to not only believe but actually have a different type of job and different type of life.

[0:00:24] Host: Do you want a career that makes a difference? No matter what sector you work in or want to work in, the new reason to work explores the countless opportunities for impactful jobs at every level. It's easier than you think. The new reason to work lays out six essential keys that can unlock your dream career in social impact. Learn how to discover and align your life's mission with job opportunities, master the skills in demand for social impact, sustain yourself in growing an impactful career over a lifetime, and much more. Through a uniquely engaging narrative, personal stories that take you around the globe, and concrete exercises in every chapter, The New Reason to Work provides new hope for the future, for your own career, and for the world. Welcome into the Author Hour. I'm your host, Benji Block. And today, I'm honored to be joined by Roshan Paul and Elena Rabat. They just authored a brand new book. The book is called The New Reason to Work, How to Build a Career That'll Change the World. You guys, we're so glad to have you here on Author Hour today. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having us.

[0:01:27] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: We're excited to be here. Likewise. Thank you, Benji.

[0:01:30] Host: Absolutely. So as we jump into the conversation here, I'd love to just provide some context, some background to the work you guys are doing. Roshan, could you tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you're up to? And then Elena, maybe go second here.

[0:01:44] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Absolutely. So, you know, my journey probably began in my senior year of college. I grew up in India, you know, had a pretty normal middle-class upbringing, came to the US for undergrad. You know, my senior year of college, I came out of my French class one morning, saw a bunch of people clustered around a TV and that seemed unusual for a Tuesday morning. So I walked over to see what was going on and that was when we saw the second plane hit the second of the twin towers. And I think that was for me the day that my whole career and my life trajectory changed from possibly going into the traditional consulting or investment banking route as most foreign students in America look to do. And that's when I decided that I was going to actually dedicate my career to social impact. and turned down, in fact, quite a lucrative job opportunity in the U.S. to move back to India and start working in social entrepreneurship. And, you know, I never looked back from that. And now it's been about 20 years of working in social entrepreneurship. And, you know, that's probably what my career is going to be all about.

[0:02:48] Host: I love that. Elena, how about you?

[0:02:50] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Yeah, in my case, Benjamin is a bit different to Russian in the sense that I grew up working with social impact without knowing it. I was probably by my parents there from Argentina, but they were forced to leave Argentina because the government at the moment was a dictatorship and they were forced to exile. We went to Venezuela. I was born there. So my childhood was not so common, I would say. We were talking about democracy, human rights, social justice, a dinner. And I think that that really marked the way I wanted to behave and wanted to do. Only when I was older, I realized that that was not common to everyone. I realized that actually it was only a niche of people doing that. And I was like, how come, right? I mean, how do we tell to more people are able to live a life of meaning and impact? And I think that that's really the start of the context of my career. I started working since very young and until today. That's how I became working in such an impact sector and want to promote that further because I believe it's not only good for the people doing it, but also for humanity and the planet.

[0:03:45] Host: Wow. That's impactful. I love how both of your stories are kind of happening in separate places around the globe, but it brings us to this question of how do you end up together working on this? So maybe explain a little bit of that. What brings your paths together?

[0:04:01] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Well, I would say that it's definitely an organization called Ashoka. We were both working at Ashoka in different projects in different countries, actually. But one day, out of terms of common interest, probably, we were both interested in this building. We had a meeting that, you know, you always walk into a meeting thinking that it's just a normal meeting, that nothing would happen out of that.

[0:04:20] Host: Right.

[0:04:21] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: But that meeting was different. That meeting actually ended up creating a full organization called Amani Institute, where we've both been leading for the last 10 years. So I would say that the cost of that is a shocker, but basically our passion for impact work and really trying to make a difference in the planet we live on.

[0:04:38] Host: You never know where those connections are going to be made. And I love that this has created so much impact and change over years because of just a simple meeting and then developing from there. I often wonder with co-authors, what are the initial conversations like? How do you go from maybe, I want to write a book someday, to we should write this book together. What was that process like?

[0:05:03] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Well, we've been working together for a decade now and working together very closely to start an organization. So the sort of co-founder journey is kind of like a marriage in a way that you really get to know each other and each other's families really well. You know, we've gotten very used to working together. We lived together in Nairobi, starting the organization. And then, you know, when Hila went to Brazil, I went to India to keep growing the organization there. We continued working together, speaking, you know, a couple of times a week and constantly in touch. So we've built a very strong, I would say, working relationship, but also personal friendship over the years. And when it came time to write a book about, you know, what we've learned, through the journey of working on Amani Institute all around the world. It seemed right that we would do that together and bring both of our insights to bear on this through our different life stories, but also through the fact that so much of what we've done in the last decade has been done together. So, of course, we wanted to write the book together.

[0:06:07] Host: Absolutely. When you think about this book and the people that are going to read it and be inspired by it, pick it up, who were you thinking about as you're writing this? Who's the ideal reader?

[0:06:19] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: That's a very good question, Benji. And actually, that's a link to the format of the book. So throughout the book is really a conversation with two characters. And these two characters embrace somehow the people that will be reading this book. On one side, we have Farah. There is someone that was working in a job in a company and probably having a pretty standard life, had a good life, been able to get married, have kids, had a job. When one day realized that that's not really the way she wants to keep living. She wants to have a job where she feels meaningful and that she can have an impact and leave a legacy in this planet. So that audience is definitely one big one in the book. So we want people that want to switch careers to a career that is a bit more impactful than the one that we're having until now. Then we have another character called Kim. And Kim is someone younger. It's really out of college. It's someone that, you know, these kind of people that are very curious and very connected to the planet, to people. And from the get-go, he really wants to build a career with impact, but he has no idea how to do it because universities normally don't help you to do that. So it's not an option really in our lack of options to build a career. So that's definitely another one piece of audience. And then the third one, is people that haven't working already is working in the social sector, the social impact sector, and they want to either change their career, they want to accelerate their career, they want to double check that they're in the right place in their careers. So this book is also for them.

[0:07:46] Host: I love that and the narrative writing of this book is really well done where you get your point across. There's a lot of stats and history that you lay out, but you do it in such a narrative way that it's extremely compelling. I'm excited to dig into some of the content here. I'd like to begin with the shift that you believe that we're experiencing really at scale when it comes to our relationship with work. You say that the meaning of work is changing. What are those shifts that we're beginning to see?

[0:08:19] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Absolutely. The book is also coming out in this time. The COVID pandemic is still rife all around the world. Even in the US, we're talking about the great resignation. But really, all around the world, we see a hunger for, from people to build meaning and impact into their career, right? So they don't want to wait until they've retired and then give back to society. They want to do it right throughout. They want to do it as part of their career. I would say even that modern psychology is caught up to what ancient you know, religious and other wisdom traditions have been telling us for centuries that, you know, meaning and purpose and fulfillment comes from giving to others and helping others. And so as we are learning this and we're learning that that could be, in fact, what you make your whole career about, we're also seeing shifts in, you know, what was previously considered the nonprofit world, a relatively small sector has been growing dramatically in the last two or three decades and has been moving into the business sector as well with social enterprises, social businesses and for-profit companies also trying to be good corporate citizens and play a positive role in society that goes beyond just making money for their shareholders. As we're seeing all of those shifts and trends, we're seeing that individuals are coming out of college, you know, coming out of grad school, have been working for a few years and want to make a shift in this direction. So as we put all of that together, we see that It's something no less than the reason we want to work itself has moved from, let's say, our parents' or grandparents' generation, where work was really about survival or about building a family. And today, work is moving into something that's much more a reflection of our identity, of who we are, what we are leaving behind. And so people really want to make that something really powerful. And they're pushing their organizations, pushing their companies to move in that direction as well. But at the same time, it's not so clear how you go about doing that. How do you build a career that makes a difference in the world? And so since we've both been doing that for two decades plus each, we felt we had something to share on that. And as we've also, you know, walked now 10,000 people through those careers, you know, we had something to teach in that regard. And that's kind of why we wrote the book for this particular moment in time as well.

[0:10:47] Host: Elena, anything you would add there?

[0:10:48] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Probably what I would add is that if you the audience right is asked to have a job that you're able to make money to have a living right and you feel satisfied that you feel that challenge and on top of that you can make impact right why not right so i think that the question is like we can have it all it's not that we have to pick i think that we are in the moment where everything is possible that we can have impact we can have a living and we can feel challenged in our jobs

[0:11:16] Host: Well, I have to tell you guys, you had me sold before I made it out of the introduction of this book. And it started with really one sentence. So I'm going to read your words back to you. But this was the sentence that got me. You say, we believe that the future of work is one in which your job description includes not only your title, responsibilities, and salary, but also a convincing case for the impact your work will create. If there's business leaders, CEOs, anyone that's hiring someone, if they were to start doing that and putting that on someone's resume or on someone's... For what they're hiring for, I think it would change so much. So just in that one sentence, you had me hooked because I see that in the future and I believe in it. Let's do this. Let's define what we're talking about when we talk about impactful work. What does that word mean? And what would that look like to create?

[0:12:11] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: That's a great question because a lot of confusion around that, right? So definitely what I started with what that is not meaning. So this is not about working in NGOs, right, nonprofit organizations. It is not about charity. It could be, but it's not only about that. And I think that's very important to mention because many people, when you talk about social impact work, They go directly to that paradigm of NGOs, it's a charity, it's about giving. Yeah, that's a chunk of the thing. It's great. But it's way more room than that. So the way we are using it in the book and defining it is that it's any job. So it could be in a company, could be an NGO, could be in a social business, could be in government. It doesn't matter. Where the most of your time, so the majority of the time you spend on the job, you're using it to create impact. And that's interesting, because it's not defined by the company. It's not defined by your manager or boss. It's defined by you. So you are able, each of us, are able to twist our job description to really make it impactful. And I think that's where the 10th paradigm hits in the book, right? That's a challenge we are putting people on. You don't But you can do it yourself. And that's the reason we want this book to spread around, for people to have the tools and the willingness and the hope to make that change themselves.

[0:13:27] Host: Can you walk out for me what it might look like? Because I think one reason that we assume this is more an NGO work and nonprofit space is because it's easy to see some of the human impact there, that we're having the positive impact. But what about in jobs where it's not immediately obvious? What would be an example of how you would work in this idea of impact?

[0:13:53] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Yeah. So we are seeing that more and more companies, for instance, are being pushed by their staff to talk about what's the impact that they're having. You know, one example that we talk about in the book is, you know, someone who says like, okay, they are selling soap to a low income community. And, you know, they could choose to say like, it's all about sales. And we're going to, you know, just like go around, you know, selling soap to as many people as possible. But what if they were to change the way they looked at it and say, you know, it's not actually about soap, it's about hygiene and sanitation so that people in low-income communities get sick less often, and by getting sick less often, they can make sure that they keep their jobs and they're not going to have to quit a a job they desperately need because they have to be sick. If they were to look at it and reframe it as something that they're actually doing to help people keep their jobs and stay healthy, then that completely transforms the way that they would go about selling soap and the way they would go about making the case to their customers about buying soap. It's really about looking for what's the larger impact that this particular product or this particular service can have, and reorienting how you do things in that way, right? And so, as we said, the primary intent of the job is to make the world a better place or leave a lasting impact. That actually changes the way you work on it. It changes the way you interact with your customers. It changes the way you interact with your colleagues, changes the way you motivate and inspire your team. It gives everyone a different purpose for being, a different purpose for doing this work. And I think that's where the real power lies in reframing how we approach work in the future.

[0:15:46] Host: Because impact is really about a strong why.

[0:15:49] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Absolutely, yeah. It's a lot about a strong why. And we know that when people are really connected to their why, to the why do you do what you do, not just what you do, but why do you do what you do. And that is connected to who they really want to be in the world. It makes them happier, it makes them more fulfilled, and it makes them more successful as well.

[0:16:10] Host: Elena, were you going to add?

[0:16:11] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Yeah, I would love to add. I think that Rosam's explained it perfectly. And to build on that example, that doesn't mean that it's everything perfect. They are trade-off, right? I mean, this guy that Rosam was explaining that he's selling the soup, probably to follow his pattern and his mission, he has to spend more time with the clients to tell them how to use the soup properly. And that may imply that he will sell less and have less commissions, right? Less money at the end of the month. And that's fine. It's a trade-off, right? And we are capable to decide in that. but there are options and that's the important part. So knowing that whatever we decide has trade-off, but we argue that the benefits are way bigger than the downsides of that.

[0:16:50] Host: Yeah, yeah. I'd assume almost every listener listening right now would lean in and they'd go, I want a job that makes a positive impact in the world. Would you have some questions that maybe we could be asking ourselves as we seek a job like this?

[0:17:06] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Yes, definitely. We have even a full chapter in the book dedicated to that. So we totally encourage people to go there and check them out. There are six questions, if I'm not wrong, so let me go and look at them. But the first one is really, what do you care about, right? I mean, what is your purpose? And that's very important. So understanding if it's a topic, if it's a cause, and that's basically the number one. So why is important for you that job? The other one, it's about, do you want to interact with beneficiaries directly? And that goes back to the NGO question, right? We are used to think that the only way to do impact work is to be in the field, like it's called in the jargon in the sector. That basically means being in a place where you're making a difference that could be like a school, it could be adoption, right? It could be in a healthcare center, in a community. But actually, no, you can have a lot of different opportunities that are not directly linked with beneficiaries. That could be behind a desk, that could be in an office, right? So I think that's important to understand if you want to interact or not with the beneficiaries. The other one is about income. I was saying before, there could be a trade off, right? Between what do you decide to work on? And what is your salary? But that doesn't mean, and again, that's another wrong belief in the sector, is that not because you work with impact, that means that you have a lower salary. There are many jobs with actually very high salaries. So you need to decide also on that. Which type of job, which type of salary do you want? The other one is location, right? Some people, because of personal reasons, because of preferences, they want to work in a specific country or a specific continent. So that's also important to know where you want to work. The other one is culture. And that applies not only for social impact work, but applies to any type of work, right? I mean, you want to work in an organization that is aligned with your values, with who you are, with why you do what you do, with a little bit of style, communication style. So the culture is also very important. The other one is that, again, it's not only about doing things in the field. This type of job with impact can be about research, can be about managing, can be about fundraising, can be about advocating for a cause, can be about writing, can be many, many different things. So to understand what is the main activity you want your job to focus on, right?

[0:19:23] Host: Right.

[0:19:24] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: And then the last one that probably can determine or actually will make you plan what to do next. is what is the location you need for that job? So let me give you an example. If you want to work with impact investment, that is something quite common today in the sector, you may need some economy background or some finance background, right? So it's understanding that. But if you want to work, I don't know, with young people, maybe you need that background experience. So it's understanding what you need for that job. So I would say that those are some of the questions that we need to really find a meaningful and impactful job in the sector.

[0:19:57] Host: I go back to the culture question and have a follow up there because I think about what we were talking about earlier saying we can personally decide and reframe what we're doing to better understand and better see the impact we're having. But how do we know if a culture is the right fit or if it's maybe too far gone to really have that sort of impact like weighing those options when it's not a nonprofit sector and we're not maybe upper management can be difficult? What are some of those things in a culture that has healthy impact that cause it to thrive? Does that make sense?

[0:20:35] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Yeah, I would say, so culture is often set top down. It's set by the leaders of an organization. And you want to look at how did they define the purpose of the organization. So your idea of culture fit for most people comes to how did they connect personally with the purpose of that organization. And that you can see a lot from the way the organization is set up. how it communicates, what its explicit goals are, does it live, you know, like does its corporate values, not just like something they put up on a, you know, as a poster in the office, but it's actually something that's baked into how they run meetings, how they interact with customers and so on. So you can tell a lot from even the way like your interview is being conducted, what the culture of that organization. So I think one big part of it is purpose and how that purpose is lived. The second part of it could be more in terms of how they think about interactions between people, right? How is compensation set up? How are team meetings run? Whose voice is heard and so on? And does it bring in inclusion of different voices in a team? in a way that, again, goes beyond the corporate statements that we see so commonly today, but goes into how the meetings are run or how the organization operates on a day-to-day basis. That, I would say, is a general answer. Specifically, in the world of impact-first jobs, which is the universe in which we're were setting this book, different organizations will have different cultures. So you take the role of autonomy, for instance, which has been proven to be one of the key determinants of motivating people. Different types of organizations, more bureaucratic government agencies, for instance, will provide perhaps less autonomy and more like a need to follow procedures and rules. Whereas, you know, social businesses or smaller organizations may give people a lot more freedom to innovate, to operate, to try different things and so on. And, you know, different people actually like different cultures. I think one of the things that we've seen in social impact is that, you know, and working with so many people to help them find the career that's best for them is that Some people like bureaucracy and top-down and clear processes and so on, and they thrive in that setting. And then some people would be utterly miserable in that setting, and they would want much fewer rules, more freedom to innovate, more freedom to try different things. And it really differs from person to person. So knowing that there is a place for you, I think, is really important, that different organizations or different types of organizations have different cultures and that there's a place for everyone. It's a really big tent increasingly. And one of the things we're trying to do with this book is to help people feel that there is a place for them in the world of making social impact.

[0:23:35] Host: That's so good. And it's interesting. We don't have time to dive into all of it, but you take time to really talk about the journey of the change maker, the inner journey of the change maker. And I think that plays a crucial role in all of this because when we understand ourselves and then we understand our place in the world, it starts to really impact the decisions we make. And then we can see these things and these decisions more clearly. definitely challenge people to, again, go grab the book. It'll definitely ask some quality questions that will set you on the right path. I want to talk about 2014. Amani Institute is 2 years old at that point. And you describe a story where police are engaged in this sort of armed standoff with burglars right outside your building. Would you tell me a bit about that story? Russell, do you want to go ahead? Yeah, sure.

[0:24:26] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: So firstly, just to place the context of the story, we're talking about a world sometimes that this work can be difficult and that you will be called to show courage, the courage of your convictions, but also just courage to step up when you need to do something. And we talk about, you know, a time that happened in our life in Kenya where the organization was in its early years, you know, still fragile because still a startup. At that time in particular, Nairobi was going through a series of terrorist attacks and life was a little bit constrained in that there was lots of security everywhere and so on. One day we woke up. to find that there had been a armed robbery on our office building now wasn't targeting us in any way it was another company that was a well known large company that had an office there. There was an armed robbery attempt on that company, but it was where we were going to be bringing our students. We had class that day, and a group of 25 students from all around the world were going to gather there for a day of class. And we found out about this on Twitter, and through our cleaning lady, who was getting the office ready for the day, we had to jump into action and find another location for the class. And we were able to do that. But then one of our staff, we had to get things from the office. We also had valuables in there that we didn't want to be looted. When the police said that, okay, things have calmed down, you can go back. One of our staff members went back in to get some of the things we needed and to secure our valuables and so on. But it turned out that wasn't completely over. And the police at that point discovered there was one or more armed robbers in the building and so they shouted that everyone should barricade themselves and behind their office and they were still going to come back to through again. And so that was the point at which you know a staff member was panicking and I went over from, you know, the location we had moved to, you know, to try to help them out. I went back to our office, you know, the police were yelling at everyone who had gathered there saying, get behind walls, like bullets could start flying. And I was, you know, like hiding behind this wall, like thinking about my employee who was inside. And that was like a real moment of, you know, understanding like this is why we're here in a way, you know, like that was then the conversation that that this all led to. I mean, in the end, everything was fine. He came out okay, and we were able to eventually go back into the building the next day. But the conversation that that kicked off with our leadership team was, should we leave Nairobi? Are things just too bad? And the Peace Corps had left Nairobi. Missionary groups were leaving. Our students, their parents, our partners all wanted to know, what were we going to do? And that was where you have to really show the courage to stand up for your convictions, show your values in action. Our values are only, it's not what we think they are, it's what we do when we are at a crossroads. That's what determines values. And so for us, this crossroads moment was really about, are we going to stay or are we going to go? And we realized that the work we're doing is here. And if you're going to build the skills to do meaningful work, you've got to build it in the field. And so we decided to stay. It lost us some friends. It lost us some partners. But in the end, it actually led to an amazing set of outcomes and success that wouldn't have happened if we had decided to leave at that time. We tell it in more detail in the book. But basically, there is a story to show how standing up for your values can actually lead to a much bigger success than you might have otherwise thought.

[0:28:04] Host: Absolutely. And that's where I wanted to lead us because I think ultimately that story does hit on something that I think many, when they think of having an impact, they think about the bright, cheery, exciting side of getting to have impact. the truth is it does take a lot of courage. And there are a lot of hard moments and big decisions that have to be made. And so as we start to wrap up, if you guys were to just leave us with a challenge, some advice, what would it be and maybe call us into that level of impact moving forward?

[0:28:41] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: That's a good challenge, Benji. I think that for me, what is really behind the book is to challenge the work itself. to challenge paradigms, mental models that we are used to have, right? And that's because they are given, doesn't mean that they cannot change or we cannot see them differently. So the book is a call for people that want to not only believe, but actually have a different type of job and different type of life. So I guess the question is, are we courageous enough to do that change? Because as you said, there are some trade-offs, there are some decisions to make around that. But I think that I can guarantee that if people are willing to challenge paradigms, they're willing to challenge why job is there. It's not an end to an end, but it's an end in itself. It's an end for happiness, for fulfillment, for impact. Then I guarantee that it's totally worth doing it. And the benefits are bigger than some of the downsides that you can find in the way. For me, I would say one thing to add to that is it becomes a lot easier in community. You know, we've seen all the resources coming out saying you are who you spend time with, right? Like you're the same, like, you know, people who are overweight are around people who are also overweight or, you know, people who workaholics around people who are also workaholics like we're seeing that you know it becomes much easier if you surround yourself with people that are also working towards impact and working you know towards spending their time and their lives working towards building a better world right so sometimes it's hard for people because they don't know like who, how to find these other people or how to find other people who have shared the same values that they do. And so one of the things we urge people in the book is to find your tribe or find your community of practice because these people exist, you know, and if you can through joining educational programs or fellowships or, you know, clubs in your city or whatever it might be, try to like find the people who believe what you believe. And when you're with them, it becomes just a lot easier to start to make the choices that you need to make in order to move your life towards your values, towards the purpose that you want to be. So, find your community. Sometimes you may have to change, you know, or take the first steps if this is something that is you don't know people who believe what you believe. Take the first steps to try to find them, you know, in your city and go from there.

[0:31:02] Host: Wow. Thank you guys so much for sharing your wisdom with us on Author Hour today. There's so much gold there and then obviously in the book as well. As co-founders of Amani Institute, which Amani in Swahili means peace, take a minute here before we close, tell us a bit more about the important work you're doing there, how people can connect further with that work and both of you online.

[0:31:24] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: So Amani Institute is an organization that really prepares people for social impact. So if you are listening to this podcast and you are asking yourself, yeah, I want to have that type of job that they're describing, but how do I do it? How do I find that a community, the tribe that Roshan was talking about, Amani is a place to go. So I would say that don't hesitate to go to the website. It's www.amaniinstitute.org. And there you can find information. Roshan, do you want to add anything to that? Yeah, I would say that, you know, the organization works all around the world and runs programs all around the world, but also virtually. So, you know, thanks to the pandemic, it's never been easier to connect with Armani Institute and do programs that the organization offers. I would also say for both of us, we have actually, you know, we're on the board and active board members at Amani Institute. You can find us on LinkedIn very easily. You can find us on social media as well, or through the website, the book, the website of the book is the new reason to work.com. So feel free to go there and you can also send us an email through the website so that that makes it easy to contact.

[0:32:29] Host: Well, thanks so much for taking time to be on Author Hour with us today. The book is on Amazon now. You can go get it, The New Reason to Work, How to Build a Career That'll Change the World. Thank you both so much for taking time and being here.

[0:32:43] Roshan Paul & Ilaina Rabbat: Thank you, Benji. It was great getting to know you and to talk to the audience. Likewise. Thank you so much, Benji. Really appreciate it.

[0:32:50] Host: Thanks for joining us for this episode of Author Hour. You can find the new reason to work, how to build a career that will change the world on Amazon. A transcript of this episode as well as all of our previous episodes is available right now at AuthorHour.co. For more Author Hour, subscribe to this podcast on your favorite subscription service. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time. Same place, different author.